A few questions on predestination

[Invicta]

The first account of God acknowledging and allowing free will in man is found in Genesis 2:16-17.

God made man in his image and gave him freewill. Adam sinned and begat his children in his own fallen image and from that time our freewill is only to sin.

But our freewill to accept and reject Christ is of our own.

Not according to Jesus. John 6:39 And this is the Father

[JerryNumbers]

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Yes, with Joseph, God worked it out for his own good, without overriding the free will of his brothers. Yes, I know, with our human minds its so hard to grasp, and many will not accept something if its not logical with their human wisdom.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God's thoughts and God's ways are not ours, and while abiding on this earth we will never fully comprehend all of them. But knowing that does not stop many from adding their human logic to it, thus winding up outside to the Bible.

Like one of my past pastors who was extremely smart in the Bible, at that time he was a firm believer that no man could ever know the date that Jesus would come for His own. But yet he got involved with another man who was also very smart in the Bible. They studying together for some time, thought they had come up with the answer, them got prepared for that day. It came and went without Jesus coming making a fool out of both of them.

The more so that we get towards the latter days the more so humans have a harder time accepting the Bible as it is, even ever learning, but yet not coming to the truth.

We just need to let God be God, and believe, while knowing we will not understand everything fully while we are in this body.

And yes, I know well these words will not set well with some, who have those enquiring minds. But it was the same way during the days Jesus was on this earth teaching people Himself, so really, nothing has changed.

[Seth Doty]

God made man in his image and gave him freewill. Adam sinned and begat his children in his own fallen image and from that time our freewill is only to sin.



Not according to Jesus. John 6:39 And this is the Father

[anime4christ]

Amen, Jerry80871852. That's one of the things I've said all along in this thread. I'm just trying to figure out the answers that I can (I realize I can't understand all of it) without discarding one truth in favor of another, even if they seem to contradict to our minds.

[JerryNumbers]

[Reformation Man35]

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Just curious as to your commentary on this passage in Romans.

[John81]

The Romans passage, and others, is what I was thinking of as I drove in the car earlier.

There are also other passages which relate such. In the gospels we read of God blocking some from understanding the message. Later, we read that God will make it so many believe deception rather than the truth.

God is God and who are we to say how He runs the show or deals with His creation. There is no way we can comprehend all this but we can trust God to do what he has said.

[Crushmaster]

Allow me to put in a thought on that section of Romans 9. I am not a Calvinist, but my family is; at the moment, I'm kind of undecided.

My thought is this. I think that, in some of the plagues, it says that Pharoah hardened his heart. In the later ones, I think it says that God hardened his heart.

The Bible says that you must be "drawn" by God to be saved. Now, it seems to make sense that you could reject this drawing or accept it. However, it also seems possible that if you refuse God and refuse Him, He will no longer offer salvation to you, at least for a time. You have set yourself on the road of destruction, without hope.

Just some thoughts.
God bless,
Joel.

[Psalms18_28]

Allow me to put in a thought on that section of Romans 9. I am not a Calvinist, but my family is; at the moment, I'm kind of undecided.

My thought is this. I think that, in some of the plagues, it says that Pharoah hardened his heart. In the later ones, I think it says that God hardened his heart.

The Bible says that you must be "drawn" by God to be saved. Now, it seems to make sense that you could reject this drawing or accept it. However, it also seems possible that if you refuse God and refuse Him, He will no longer offer salvation to you, at least for a time. You have set yourself on the road of destruction, without hope.

Just some thoughts.
God bless,
Joel.

I think about my JW friend who rejected the gospel, (her heart have hardened against the gospel) but so she always take an more experienced JW with her because they are more experienced and it is extremely hard to reach out them because they are so attached to their own religion. It's like the Holy Spirit isn't there to convince them yet (they don't even question or wonder).<----- I can't explain this in words. Now my friend did question and wonder, but not anymore.

[Wilchbla]

You folks sure are making a lot out of predestination. Don't let Calvin do you thinking for you.

Predestination does not start until AFTER one excercises his/her freewill to receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

God foreknew who would accept his Son as Savior and predetermined ahead of time that they would be adopted as Sons and eventually be conformed to the image of Christ. But this predestination does not begin for the believer until AFTER he/she is saved. You are not predestioned before you are saved you are predestined after you are saved. Simple. Predestination is simply the purpose of God. It is not somekind of arbitraty choosing. All it is is God's purpose for those who get saved. It has nothing to do with God setting the course in who will or will not get saved.

[JerryNumbers]

Why can't God be in absolute control of every detail yet give people free will in a way that is beyond our comprehension? If God can see time in a non-linear fashion which we will never be able to explain while here on Earth, why do we have to think if we can't explain free will and predestination with our logic, that one or the other must be not true? Just a thought on the limit of our logic.

Why can't you except God as He is, instead of making Him out something that is not in the Bible?

Its clear, in the garden God gave Adam and Eve free will, Eve of her very own free will took of the forbidden, them Adam took of it. Why add to it?

[anime4christ]

Why can't you except God as He is, instead of making Him out something that is not in the Bible?

Its clear, in the garden God gave Adam and Eve free will, Eve of her very own free will took of the forbidden, them Adam took of it. Why add to it?

I'm not trying to take something that's not in the Bible, I'm trying to take every bit that is in the Bible and put it together. It does not fully fit in our brain then, but we cannot discard one truth for another.

[rancher824]

I see no question as to whether or not God is in control. We see in things such as Joseph that he can take the bad things of life and turn them around and make good come out of them. But does that mean that he predestined or predetermined everything that would happen. Yes we know God is all knowing, but does that mean he always uses that knowledge the way we think of. For instance we find in Genesis 6:6 that it repented God that he had made man. Now we all know that God knew man would sin, else he would not have planned Jesus for the sacrifice before the foundation of the world. But if he used that forknowledge the way predestination of all things would call for why would he repent of making man. But then we find that Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. To me this seems that though God is all knowing he put things into free will and then allowed them to take shape without him using his knowledge. Another example of what I am trying to say is King Hezekiah found in Isaiah 38. We find Hezekiah sick unto death in verse 1 and Isaiah being sent by God to tell him to set his house in order for he was going to die. Then we find King Hezekiah turning to the wall and praying for mercy. And what is the mercy shown? God added 15 years to his life (verse 5). Now my thoughts are that if God used his knowledge to know everything that would happen in detail before the foundation of the world why does he say he added 15 years to King Hezekiah's life? If he predestinated all things then he knew from before the foundations of the world that Hezekiah would live that extra 15 years thus making it that nothing was added!!! That would make a prOBlem for God said "I will add". Now the question is what did he add 15 years to? Was it the life span he predestined before the foundation of the world? Then all things were not Predestinated or else God would have known that Hezekiah was going to pray and predestinated that he would live exactly how long he did. Was it that he added 15 years to the sentance he had set? Yes he added it to the time that he told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah he was to live.

[Reformation Man35]

Any more commentators on the passage on Romans 9?

[trc123]

For the record, I am not saying God is not in control. I am saying he has chosen not to be in "complete" or "absolute" control. If and when God chooses to intervene he not only can but does so as he chooses within his own character and word. But this is far different then being a "puppet master" who is continually and purposely always pulling strings in order to have things "move" the way in which he wants.

There are just some things God has chosen to put into motion, having established certain principles or laws for their moment by moment operation. One example is the weather. Has God, does God and can God intervene and "control" the weather in the manner he wishes? Absolutely! Does God always choose to intervene and "control" the weather? No! He has established certain laws and has set them in motion and the weather of the earth occurs in accordance with those laws, etc. In this sense God is in control (having established the operating rules and set things in motion); but he has chosen to not be in "complete control." This in itself is a form of control, I understand that......but this is not "complete" control.