Time Period of Dinosaurs

[heartstrings]

I can't really add much to the conversation. I believe the Bible clearly states that EVERYTHING was created in 6 literal - 24 hour days about 6,000 years ago. As pointed out there are a lot of problems if you deny this. One thing not mentioned is that typically if you believe in billions of years you have to also deny a global flood.

The Bible clearly states "six days" but it does not say "24 hrs", nor does it say "6000 years". One thing the Bible DOES say is that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.......
Another thing, "the greater light to rule the day", which we assume was the sun, was not created until day four. Genesis 1:14-19 So how do we know there were "24 hr" periods until then? And since there was no sun on the first three days, what produced the "evening and morning" on those days?

Why would a belief in billions of years be a denial of a global flood? Just asking.

[Bakershalfdozen]

The Bible clearly states "six days" but it does not say "24 hrs", nor does it say "6000 years". One thing the Bible DOES say is that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.......
Another thing, "the greater light to rule the day", which we assume was the sun, was not created until day four. Genesis 1:14-19 So how do we know there were "24 hr" periods until then? And since there was no sun on the first three days, what produced the "evening and morning" on those days?

Why would a belief in billions of years be a denial of a global flood? Just asking.

Plants were created on Day 3, and plants can't live w/o sunlight for very long. Also, the Sabbath Day which God consecrated for the Hebrews was patterned after Creation week.

The sun didn't produce evening and morning until day four but something did because God said it. He created light in some form the first day and divided it from the darkness.

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

The Bible clearly states "six days" but it does not say "24 hrs", nor does it say "6000 years". One thing the Bible DOES say is that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years.......
Another thing, "the greater light to rule the day", which we assume was the sun, was not created until day four. Genesis 1:14-19 So how do we know there were "24 hr" periods until then? And since there was no sun on the first three days, what produced the "evening and morning" on those days?

Why would a belief in billions of years be a denial of a global flood? Just asking.

Genesis states "even and morning" and then gives a numbered day so it would be 24 hours or very close given that maybe days were a few minutes longer or shorter back then. Also since man was created at the start and we have the family tree listed in the Bible you can date the earth to about 6,000 years give or take. There are claims of large gaps in the family trees but I have never seen any evidence for that and you certainly don't have millions or billions of years of gaps. As for a local flood the dating of billions of years has to be tossed out if the entire planet was covered in global flood. It would have wiped out the "million" year old fossils.

The question a person must ask themselves is why do they see a need to have millions or billions of years? Is it because of a clear passage in the Bible? Or is it because that is what popular science tells us? There is science that shows carbon in diamonds. That actually points to a young earth. As for the 1,000 year quote that isn't talking about creation. All it really tells us is that God is outside time.

[holster]

Simply put, it is "catastrophism" vs "uniformitarianism." The unbelieving scientist bases all his beliefs that "everything has been happening at the same rate and in the same way for millions of years." The Bible believer believes his bible and knows that God and man has caused many drastic changes on this earth (sin cursing a perfect earth, the flood, vastly different climate before and after flood, etc etc)

May I ask a simple questions? Pretend there has been no creation yet. Nothing exists. Then "poof" God speaks and we have creation. Now, a Nobel Laureate needs funding for his tree research so he decides to do a study on trees. He goes and cuts down a tree (one hour after creation) and counts the rings. There are 23 rings so he concludes that the tree is 23 years old. He writes an astounding research paper on the age of trees and receives his grant. He is heralded as a great scientist. Is he right? Is the tree really 23 years old?

"Catastrophism" vs "Uniformitarianism" will NEVER reach the same conclusion. The modern scientist and the Bible believer will NEVER agree. Plain and simple.

[heartstrings]

Diamonds ARE carbon.
And how do you know the flood would have wiped out fossils?

[anime4christ]

I didn't read the whole debate here, but I do recall seeing in the news an article about a non-fossilized small carnivorous dinosaur being found by scientists about two or three years ago.

Also, Job wasn't Abraham's contemporary; if you look at the genealogies in Genesis (particularly Esau's) and compare it with the names found in Job, you'll see that Job was most likely a descendant of Esau, and therefore Abraham as well.

[Wilchbla]

There are so many problems with your theories.

God says that is was by Adam's disobedience that sin and death entered the world. There was no death prior to Adam's fall. Gap theorists say that that only means this current world but there is no Biblical evidence for Lucifer and the dinos living prior to Adam.

God said He created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in 6 days.

Also, Noah took other animals on the ark that have since gone extinct, not just dinos. So the argument that it "doesn't make sense" isn't really valid. I mean, why would God create any one of us when He knew we were going to disobey?

There is no evidence that the dinos died "right away because of the climate change". None of us here knows how long the dinos lasted. If Noah was smart-and I'm pretty sure he was- he probably took baby animals with him. They eat less and sleep more. Anyway, animals that grew large before the Flood didn't grow as large afterward because of the climate change. Two (seven of some) of every kind of animal isn't really that many animals compared to the whole world. And since man decided to stay in one place for a few hundred years, the animals that feared man would have migrated away...all over the world.

Since

Thanks for your reply. Sin and death did enter the world with Adam. But before that Satan had to have fallen at one point. Unless you are going to say that he fell almost immediately after the creation then tempted Adam and Eve. My theory is that Lucifer and his angels were on the original earth, along with the dinosaurs, and when Lucifer fell God wiped it all out, including the dinosaurs, then recreated everything again on earth in seven literal days. It just never made sense to me that God would have Noah take dinosaurs on the ark to only have them die off right away. What purpose would there be in that? Now I keep hearing that this teaching is nothing but an attempt to harmonize the Bible with evolution. That's hogwash. I believe in the seven literal days (24 hours) of creation but that doesn't mean that the earth itself couldn't have been around for millions of years before Adam and Eve, the animals, plants, etc. were created. I'll get even nuttier than that. I also believe that the other planets in our solar system, etc. were originally intended to be populated by mankind BEFORE the fall. If death never entered, we would have eventually had to spread out to other planets. But that's another story.

Can I prove any of this? Nope. It just seems to make the most sense to me and fit into the timeline of the Bible the best.

[Bakershalfdozen]

I could say that Lucifer fell some time after Creation. It does fit within revealed knowledge - God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in 6 days and that includes Lucifer.

Who says the Lucifer's fall had to be immediately, and where do people get the idea that Adam and Eve fell within a couple of days of being created?

[MatthewDiscipleOfGod]

Diamonds ARE carbon.
And how do you know the flood would have wiped out fossils?

I should have been more specific, I mean carbon-14. You should not be able to carbon date diamonds but you can. I suggest you read this article for more indepth information then I could give here. Also ICR has a short article giving multiple evidences for a young earth.

[anime4christ]

Thanks for your reply. Sin and death did enter the world with Adam. But before that Satan had to have fallen at one point. Unless you are going to say that he fell almost immediately after the creation then tempted Adam and Eve. My theory is that Lucifer and his angels were on the original earth' date=' along with the dinosaurs, and when Lucifer fell God wiped it all out, including the dinosaurs, then recreated everything again on earth in seven literal days.[/quote']

That theory is contrary to what the Bible says; part of it is pure speculation, the other contradicts Genesis 1:31. At the end of the six day creation, it was very good; your theory would already have something bad by then.



Has been discussed. If you are truly curious, read the whole thread; if you want us to repeat it over and over again, I don't see the point.

[Wilchbla]

That theory is contrary to what the Bible says; part of it is pure speculation, the other contradicts Genesis 1:31. At the end of the six day creation, it was very good; your theory would already have something bad by then.

Yes, everything was good before the fall. Not now. I don't see what Gen. 1 has to do with what I'm saying. By the way, the whole thread has been speculation on what happened to the dinosaurs AFTER THE FLOOD.

Has been discussed. If you are truly curious, read the whole thread; if you want us to repeat it over and over again, I don't see the point.

I did. It still doesn't make sense. I don't see your point in your statement.

Well, you're adding to the Bible, just to try to look "scientifically correct" when using evolution as a standard of measure. In other words, trusting man more than God. It IS reconciling the Bible with evolution, but it is also demeaning His Word.

Didn't I just say I believe in the seven literal days of creation? All I said is that I believe that Lucifer ruled over a pre-Adamic earth that was destroyed. Nothing evolution about it. Point out one thing about evolution in the statement? The earth being millions of years old since Genesis 1:1 doesn't prove evolution in of itself. Now if I was to say it was millions of years old since Genesis 1:3 then it would. Also, try reading II Peter 3:4-7.

And to be honest, people who hold this view, usually are criticized by both sides. It's like the story about the guy who put on a Yankee shirt and rebel pants. At the end of the war he was found dead, shot by soldiers from both sides. Pick a side, don't try to reconcile the irreconcilable.

This would only convince me more of the veracity of it. Usually within a heated debate the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

That is an interesting notion, and I don't find anything wrong in imagining that. However, my personal opinion is God made this planet different from the rest so we can see that he made so much in this universe, yet this little planet is special to Him. Also keep in mind that only about 3% of the earth is habitable for man to live on, according to some scientists. Before the flood, a much larger percentage of the earth was habitable, so there wouldn't be any population problems even without death right now.

You can't prove that anymore than my theory. By the way, some of the other planets show signs of dried up river beds, etc. Like perhaps they were destroyed by God at one point in time.

Different things make sense to different people. That's why we need a standard to measure up to; that standard is God's Word. If it doesn't match up, it's not true. When people rely on the imaginations that make most sense to them, you end up with something like Hinduism.

The bottome line is Lucifer had to have fallen at some point in time after the creation. Unless you have Adam and Eve hanging around childless for possibly hundreds or thousands of years or have Lucifer and the angels rebeling almost immediately after they were created than Lucifer's fall would have to taken place between verses 1 and 2 followed by a judgement. This does not support evolution since nothing evolved and it doesn't effect the seven day literal creation (which didn't occur until after the earth was already made) or the creation and fall of man. And as far as the dinosaurs, folks can come up with Disney fairytales about one being spotted in the Amazon or wherever but the truth is that none has ever been found.

[anime4christ]

To summarize the answer about the dinosaurs: They were created on day 6 along with all the beasts as Genesis says. The Earth was generally a better place to live then than it is now. People and animals could live much longer than today. Reptiles usually grow all throughout their life, therefore being able to reach larger sizes before the flood. Noah took dinosaurs on the ark: most likely babies.

During the flood, the Earth as it was then, was destroyed: the climate changed, a large portion of the Earth became uninhabitable, etc. People and animals did not live as long and reached smaller sizes as the post-flood destroyed world took its toll. Some of the larger dinosaurs died out because the Earth could no longer support them (many large dinosaurs had small nostrils and required more oxygen than the current atmosphere could offer them in one breath). Other dinosaurs were hunted down for various reasons; we get many of our dragon legends from those times.

Some of the smaller dinosaurs may still be alive today either in very remote places of the Earth or as large lizards which, given enough time, have the potential to grow to a large animal would they live as long as before the flood. Dinosaur literally means terrible lizard; therefore you can go so far as to say modern lizards are the Chihuahua of dinosaurs.

This would only convince me more of the veracity of it. Usually within a heated debate the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Some people argue God exists, some argue not. Is the truth in the middle? Add to the problem if the "middle" guy starts arguing his position, where is the truth now? Compromise does not yield truth.

Mostly what you say is 100% pure speculation, not matching the Bible, nor true science, nor even widely accepted fables such as evolution. It is useless to compare imaginations, so I won't be able to answer any further to speculation not backed by Scriptures or facts; it will only brew contention between us and not bring anything beneficial to either of us or the board.

[Alimantado]

Hi Anime4christ, not sure we've spoken before. Some points about speculation:

Mostly what you say is 100% pure speculation' date=' not matching the Bible, nor [b']true science, nor even widely accepted fables such as evolution.

But is it just Wichbla who's speculating?

Reptiles usually grow all throughout their life' date=' therefore being able to reach larger sizes before the flood.[/quote']

Speculation. We know that reptiles (and fish) exhibit indeterminate growth, but we don't now that dinosaurs did (or anything back then) and we don't know that differing conditions allowed them to grow significantly larger. Seth Doty, a great former contributor to this site who was a young-earth Creationist and also an expert on reptiles and amphibians, had no time for this argument. He discussed it once here (his posts are listed as 'Guest' now that he has left): http://onlinebaptist.com/messageboards/thread-1178-page-1.html?



Speculation--unless you know which species for sure.



Speculation about whether larger dinosaurs could breath effectively in today's climate. No-one even knows for sure what sort of lungs they had.



Speculation, unless you can say which cultures in which areas hunted down which species.



Speculation.

[anime4christ]

Agreed. The difference is my speculation does not contradict the Bible, nor science. The problem is it's impossible to argue when you're arguing against a potentially ever-shifting opinion based on nothing historical or scientific. It has no foundation, therefore impossible to tell where it stands. You are then at the mercy of someone's imagination. If our argument is based on an interpretation of a known fact, it can then be argued for or against on an even level.

Pretty much, the message I get from Wichbla is "I think it is so, because my mind wants to think this way. I have no external reason to believe it." I cannot argue from the foundation of another's mind. It's impossible. This thread was not meant to discuss baseless speculation, but the relation dinosaurs had with the Biblical account of Creation and the flood.

[Wilchbla]

Agreed. The difference is my speculation does not contradict the Bible, nor science. The problem is it's impossible to argue when you're arguing against a potentially ever-shifting opinion based on nothing historical or scientific. It has no foundation, therefore impossible to tell where it stands. You are then at the mercy of someone's imagination. If our argument is based on an interpretation of a known fact, it can then be argued for or against on an even level.

Pretty much, the message I get from Wichbla is "I think it is so, because my mind wants to think this way. I have no external reason to believe it." I cannot argue from the foundation of another's mind. It's impossible. This thread was not meant to discuss baseless speculation, but the relation dinosaurs had with the Biblical account of Creation and the flood.

And I've still haven't heard you or anyone else answer this question without speculating from the foundation of your mind.

If the dinosaurs were to die off right away after the flood because of climate change than what was the purpose of God having Noah bring them upon the ark to begin with other than maybe to hold a big barbecue after the flood? And please, none of this "it's already been answered in the thread." What is your answer and where is the proof of any dinosaurs every being found alive (no Jules Verne fairytale stuff please).

Also, for an added bonus. When did Lucifer and the angels rebel and fall?

Until these questions can be answered satifactorily from scripture or if you can find me a living T-Rex than my speculations are just as good as anyone elses.