Separation from the world and separated unto Jesus Christ

[HappyChristian]

I agree with you here, chev. Dubya has done some things that are wrong politically, and things which we might not do because of scriptural reasons, but I do believe the man is saved. I read his testimony once, and it was quite clear that he was trusting Christ. His drunkenness ended after he was saved. Clinton, I believe, is lost. And his immoral lifestyle shows this.

[Jerry]

You're kidding' date=' right? This is comparing apples to oranges. While I disapprove a lot of what President Bush has done, to put him in the same "unChristian-like" category as President Clinton is disingenuous at best and naive at least. I'm curious to see what "sins" Bush has committed that meet the standards set by Clinton - please fill me in.[/quote']

How is Bush saved? He publically prays for the dead (which is Catholicism), says Mormons are saved and believe in the same God. That is certainly NOT the testimony of someone who has trusted in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. John 14:6 is pretty clear that salvation is only through Jesus - and his acceptance of other religions as ways to God is a denial of this doctrine. Praying for the dead is denying salvation by grace and a person is in Heaven or Hell as soon as they die (seems to be an acceptance of purgatory - at least denying Hebrews 9:27).

[war_eagle]

How is Bush saved? He publically prays for the dead (which is Catholicism)' date=' says Mormons are saved and believe in the same God. That is certainly NOT the testimony of someone who has trusted in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. John 14:6 is pretty clear that salvation is only through Jesus - and his acceptance of other religions as ways to God is a denial of this doctrine. Praying for the dead is denying salvation by grace and a person is in Heaven or Hell as soon as they die (seems to be an acceptance of purgatory - at least denying Hebrews 9:27).[/quote']

I know I'm going to be sorry for this, but do you think it's possible that President Bush, being a politician and not a theologian, sincerely does not understand the doctrines of Mormonism that differentiate Mormonism from Christianity? Not many Christians do, you know. No Mormons do.

Is it possible that he is correct about salvation by repentence and faith in Christ, but may not know the nuances of Christian doctrine?

[John81]

How about the numerous times he has lied? How about claiming that Islam is a religion of peace? How about claiming that Isalm and Chrisianity are equal? How about claiming that anyone who prays to any "god" is praying to the same God as Christians pray to? How about his promotion of homosexuals in his administration? How about him approving increased funding for Planned Parenthood? Etc.

[Guest Guest]

I agree with war_eagle on this one. We can't truely know what a man feels and believes in his heart by only basing our conclusions on what the media tells us about him. I would even say that for Clinton. Everyone sins and is capable of being forgiven, even adulterous politicians.

[HappyChristian]

The biggest difference between the two (Clinton and Bush) is that Bush has a very clear testimony of salvation, Clinton does not. Clinton has never claimed to be saved through faith in Christ. Bush has (and this was before he ran for president, so it wasn't just to get the evangelical vote). Yes, Bush has done many things he shouldn't - and I believe it is because he has sacrificed truth on the altar of political expediency. Clinton never had truth - he's a liar, always has been, and is immoral to boot. Yes, jon, they can be forgiven, but they have to ask, and Clinton never has.

John - Bush has done many things with which I disagree. We all know that Islam at it's root is not a religion of peace. But there are many Moslems in this country who do not approve of the Jihadists and things that are going on. Bush is their president, too, and sometimes because of this, compromises are made. Again, I am not defending him - I am just saying that there really is no comparison between W and Clinton.

[Guest Guest]

Happy: I'm not going to waste are time arguing over two men such as Bush and Clinton. However, I would add that just because there is no recording of Clinton's personal religious views available, does not mean that he doesn't have any. No media outlet has ever published my views and beliefs, but that doesn't mean I don't have any. We have no way of knowing a mans heart unless we personally know the man, and even then it can be difficult. You can't read into every little thing a politician says and does. Both those men ran a country, not a church, and that country is filled with a wide variety of people. The president of the U.S. has no right to belittle muslims or mormans or anyone else. That's not what they are elected to do. They have to run the country as best they can and of course they are going to step on someone's foot every now and then. For people that suggest that our leaders should effectuate new testament doctrine through legislation, I would suggest that they move to a theocracy, or seek to convert our own government to one through the proper avenues. :smile

[Psalms18_28]

Happy: I'm not going to waste are time arguing over two men such as Bush and Clinton. However' date=' I would add that just because there is no recording of Clinton's personal religious views available, does not mean that he doesn't have any. No media outlet has ever published my views and beliefs, but that doesn't mean I don't have any. We have no way of knowing a mans heart unless we personally know the man, and even then it can be difficult. You can't read into every little thing a politician says and does. Both those men ran a country, not a church, and that country is filled with a wide variety of people. The president of the U.S. has no right to belittle muslims or mormans or anyone else. That's not what they are elected to do. They have to run the country as best they can and of course they are going to step on someone's foot every now and then. For people that suggest that our leaders should effectuate new testament doctrine through legislation, I would suggest that they move to a theocracy, or seek to convert our own government to one through the proper avenues. :smile[/quote']

but presidents have a choice of not saying anything at all.. A president can treat muslims, mormon, or whoever with dignity as a human being, but he doesn't have to publicly announce that Muslims believe in the same God as we do.

[Guest Guest]

For the most part, the Christian community and the Muslim community believe they are worshipping the same "God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." It is a relatively new assertion that they are not. Anyone who has ever prayed with, or even really seriously conversed with, a muslim will have a hard time believing that we all don't worship the one true God, just through different revelations.

[John81]

Bill Clinton has claimed to be born again and his Arkansas pastor claimed Bill Clinton is born again.

President Bush has done more to unconstitutionally expand the federal government than Bill Clinton even imagined. President Bush has also run the country into astronomical debt while President Clinton didn't.

A president should be truthful. A Christian president should especially be expected to be truthful. One can acknowledge that Christ is the only way to heaven and still fairly represent all others in the country that don't believe that.

[Jerry]

Jonbaptiste, you are very naive in regards to Islam. The fact that they kill Jews and Christians is proof that they do not believe the same God we do. Otherwise they would just consider us separated brethren, which they don't.

We have no way of knowing a mans heart unless we personally know the man, and even then it can be difficult.

What does judging his heart have to do with anything? We judging his professed beliefs and his actions - which we are told by the Bible to judge by.

You can't read into every little thing a politician says and does.

We are not talking about little things, or little mistakes, but public actions and statements. He could choose to say let's pray for the families of those who have died, instead he stated several times to pray for the dead. Believing lost muslims are our brethren and that we all worship the same God is not just simple ignorance - I can see a brand new baby Christian making that mistake - not someone who has been a professing Christian for a while. What's his excuse? Neglect of Bible reading? Not truly understanding that Jesus was the only way to Heaven when he supposedly received Him? A true Christian does not cast off the fundamentals of the faith down the road - they just show their true colours, what they were truly trusting in and believing in all along.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

[John81]

Jonbaptiste, you are very naive in regards to Islam. The fact that they kill Jews and Christians is proof that they do not believe the same God we do. Otherwise they would just consider us separated brethren, which they don't.



What does judging his heart have to do with anything? We judging his professed beliefs and his actions - which we are told by the Bible to judge by.



We are not talking about little things, or little mistakes, but public actions and statements. He could choose to say let's pray for the families of those who have died, instead he stated several times to pray for the dead. Believing lost muslims are our brethren and that we all worship the same God is not just simple ignorance - I can see a brand new baby Christian making that mistake - not someone who has been a professing Christian for a while. What's his excuse? Neglect of Bible reading? Not truly understanding that Jesus was the only way to Heaven when he supposedly received Him? A true Christian does not cast off the fundamentals of the faith down the road - they just show their true colours, what they were truly trusting in and believing in all along.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

:amen:

[HappyChristian]

jonb - you'd have a hard time convincing a person who had converted from Islam to Christianity that we worship the same God. Moslems don't belive that...that's why they believe we are infidels!

[Guest Guest]

I of course can't speak for everyone, but the muslims that I know believe we are worshiping the same God. According to them, our differences lie in the position we christians have attributed to the Christ. If you go to an arab speaking country, the Christians there will refer to the God of Abraham as "Allah," just as the Muslims do. In fact, I have never heard anyone outside of this forum assert that they are not bowing before the same deity. The muslims that media are concerned with have misinterpreted their faith just as the neo-Nazis have misinterpreted christianity. I'm not trying to change your mind, just relating what I have experienced and learned. You always get more reliable information by asking a person who personally knows the tenants of Islam, rather than listening to some media outlet that often has biases and agendas. Just try it, find a muslim and ask him. I think you'll be suprised.

[John81]

The "god" Muslims pray to is not the God who has a Son called Jesus Christ.

Scripture is clear, the God of Abraham is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost. Muslims deny this.