Tithing in the last days...

[Jim_Alaska]

4 hours ago, BrotherTony said:

I've heard it said it's replacement theology, but yet, I've never had anyone prove it. I've also heard the "storehouse" preached several different ways...yet nobody has really presented it clearly...Care to explain both of these fully, Jim? It would be appreciated. I'm just presenting the prevailing view. Doesn't mean that I hold to it. But, maybe your further explanation would help. Thanks.

It is really quite simple Bro. Tony. Replacement Theology is anything given or commanded solely to Israel and then trying to make it apply to the church. Tithing was originally given only to Israel. I have boldened the relevant verses. Leviticus 27:30-34 (KJV) And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

Remember, this is under the law, we, as Christians are not under the law. This command was given by Moses exclusively to Israel, as the Scripture says in verse 34. Notice also that in verse 32 that "the tenth" of the herd or flock was The Lord's. It was not ten percent, it was the tenth animal, also it was not money, it was of the flock.

This is getting too lengthy, I suggest that you do some study yourself; this is why I posted these things above:
1.    They have replaced who is to tithe.
2.    They have replaced what is to be tithed.
3.    They have replaced where to tithe.
4.    They have replaced why they tithe.
5.    They have replaced when they tithe.

So, without even realizing what they're doing, they are practicing Replacement Theology by replacing Israel with the church in this regard.

Proper exegesis demands that we bring out of Scripture what is written, not what we think is written, or taken out of context by saying it also applies to the church. 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On the one hand, I myself am compelled to acknowledge that the New Testament does not contain a direct command of tithing for the New Testament believer.  On the other hand, I believe that the New Testament DOES provide a principle of percentage giving ("as God hath prospered" - 1 Corinthians 16:2, as well as 2 Corinthians 8:12) for the New Testament believer unto the ministry of the Lord.  Furthermore, I believe that the primary motivation for giving unto the ministry of the Lord is out of HONOR for the Lord (as per Proverbs 3:9 & 2 Corinthians 8:9), and that this motivation is the true foundation for cheerful giving (as per 2 Corinthians 9:7).  Finally, I believe that the principle of blessing according to the amount of percentage giving with a cheerful heart still holds for the New Testament believer (as per 2 Corinthians 9:6, 8-11) (which would seem to imply that the principle of cursing for not giving at all in honor unto the Lord would also still hold true).  So then, with what percentage should a New Testament believer begin?  According to 2 Corinthians 9:7 the New Testament instruction seems to be -- "according as he purposeth in his heart."  However, throughout the whole of Scripture (including Abraham before the Law, and the instructions of the Law) the tithe out of the first fruits of our increase seems to be a base percentage for giving in honor unto the Lord our God.

Edited January 7, 2022 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Jim_Alaska]

I agree Bro. Scott. And this would all speak to the concept of cheerful giving, not of necessity or according to the law, which was the tithe. The biblical doctrine of giving is one of Grace, not compulsion, therefore compulsory.

[Razor]

I agree with Brother Scott. Also, I see no place in the New Testament that negates tithing. Thus, for me, it stands and I see tithing as on gross income not net income. I see tithing as a minimum. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Razor

[TheGloryLand]

7 hours ago, E Morales said:

Should a christian tithe to a church that he or she is a member of, even if they are not managing it well. Leave the church quietly, find a church that is not self center only. This is a big problem today, we are living in a material world. Even in some churches. Or just keep tithing blindly, let God take care of it.

Can someone reply to the question above...   Thanks

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

It is really quite simple Bro. Tony. Replacement Theology is anything given or commanded solely to Israel and then trying to make it apply to the church. Tithing was originally given only to Israel. I have boldened the relevant verses. Leviticus 27:30-34 (KJV) And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD. And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof. And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

Remember, this is under the law, we, as Christians are not under the law. This command was given by Moses exclusively to Israel, as the Scripture says in verse 34. Notice also that in verse 32 that "the tenth" of the herd or flock was The Lord's. It was not ten percent, it was the tenth animal, also it was not money, it was of the flock.

This is getting too lengthy, I suggest that you do some study yourself; this is why I posted these things above:
1.    They have replaced who is to tithe.
2.    They have replaced what is to be tithed.
3.    They have replaced where to tithe.
4.    They have replaced why they tithe.
5.    They have replaced when they tithe.

So, without even realizing what they're doing, they are practicing Replacement Theology by replacing Israel with the church in this regard.

Proper exegesis demands that we bring out of Scripture what is written, not what we think is written, or taken out of context by saying it also applies to the church. 

Once again, I'm aware...I only asked you to describe HOW it was replacement theology. I also clearly stated that I didn't necessarily hold to certain positions, that I was stating what I had heard being preached in most of the IFB churches I was around growing up. I'm well aware that we're  not under the law...You seem to forget, I'm a minister to, not one of the people who just sits in a pew for a few hours a week. I have done my research as you have. The purpose is to garner conversation and "debate" to some degree, is it not? Thanks.

55 minutes ago, Razor said:

I agree with Brother Scott. Also, I see no place in the New Testament that negates tithing. Thus, for me, it stands and I see tithing as on gross income not net income. I see tithing as a minimum. 

This is actually one thing we can agree on. SURPRISE!

[Jerry]

Tithing was instituted 400+ years before Moses gave the Law (to Abraham in Genesis 14, reinforced by Jacob in Gen 28), taught in Proverbs (if you think that one command does not apply today, show me ONE other command in Proverbs that does not apply to the NT Christian - I went through it years ago trying to find some), and I believe referred to in 1 Corinthians 16, lay by him in store.

On another note (and I know this doesn't prove anything in itself), BUT if the command to tithe as stated in Malachi 3 does not apply at all, why would the Lord bless me and many others who are faithful to claim that promise?

[Jim_Alaska]

In the years since I joined OB, I have seen the subject of tithing beaten to death on this forum. I would respectfully suggest that a search of this forum would turn up multitudes of information on this subject. As an "aside", I would also like to submit that I have no desire to make this subject a "hobby horse" subject. I am into preaching and teaching the whole counsel of God and have no wish to get bogged down with a single subject.

The original subject was in regard to tithing, which I attempted to answer. But then things got more complicated when I mentioned replacement theology and Bro. Tony asked about that. Perhaps what made things more complicated was when I used the example of tithing as an example of replacement theology. Before things get even more complicated. I would just like to state as plainly as I can, that I am not against tithing IN ITS PLACE. And I am certainly not against New Testament Giving, which is how our churches are financed today.

Although I could go on and on in regard to replacement theology as well as tithing, I would prefer not to. Anyone interested in these subjects can, and should do their own study. After all, what really counts is what the Bible says about these subjects, not any one individuals interpretation of what it says.

[Pastor Matt]

Here a few of the threads if anyone is interested in reading them

 

 

[BrotherTony]

Thanks, @PastorMatt! I'm always interested in reading anything I can on this kind of subject. 

[Jordan Kurecki]

On 1/7/2022 at 12:13 PM, Jerry said:

Tithing was instituted 400+ years before Moses gave the Law (to Abraham in Genesis 14, reinforced by Jacob in Gen 28), taught in Proverbs (if you think that one command does not apply today, show me ONE other command in Proverbs that does not apply to the NT Christian - I went through it years ago trying to find some), and I believe referred to in 1 Corinthians 16, lay by him in store.

On another note (and I know this doesn't prove anything in itself), BUT if the command to tithe as stated in Malachi 3 does not apply at all, why would the Lord bless me and many others who are faithful to claim that promise?

Where in the Old Testament was Abraham COMMANDED by God to tithe? You seem to confuse descriptive history with it being “instituted by God”. Just because Abraham tithed, does not mean he did it because God “instituted” a tithe on him. The Old Testament is full of people giving things to God that he did not require, but simply because they CHOSE to in order to worship and honor God. 

[Razor]

8 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Where in the Old Testament was Abraham COMMANDED by God to tithe? You seem to confuse descriptive history with it being “instituted by God”. Just because Abraham tithed, does not mean he did it because God “instituted” a tithe on him. The Old Testament is full of people giving things to God that he did not require, but simply because they CHOSE to in order to worship and honor God. 

Did God every tell anyone not to tithe?

[TheGloryLand]

1 hour ago, Razor said:

Did God every tell anyone not to tithe?

Yes, He did, when he told the apostles to leave everything they have behind, and follow him. He told the man, give everything you have a way, and follow me, this man had much money and slowly walked away. God does not need our tithes to survive, man does.

[Razor]

32 minutes ago, E Morales said:

Yes, He did, when he told the apostles to leave everything they have behind, and follow him. He told the man, give everything you have a way, and follow me, this man had much money and slowly walked away. God does not need our tithes to survive, man does.

So, he did not say do not tithe, but to give more. Yes, you are correct. If we are to follow Christ we are to commit all, all our life, all our resources, all of our desires and all, all, all to him. Christ always meets us and asks us to do away with what most attracts us. With many this is money and material things. For others it may be some other aspect in our life. Christ approaches each person uniquely as each person is unique.

This is one of the hard teachings of Christ that is hard for any of us to follow. I am not sure any of us do reach that point of commitment. 

It is the old saw, 'I know more than I can do.'

One area of our lives we need to come to grips with is the difference between our needs and our wants. I believe Christ wants us to meet our needs, but to not our wants. Wants are not part of his plan for us. Yes, I can preach a better sermon on this than I can live. This is a lifelong struggle. 

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Razor
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[Razor]

No one should be surprised at the difficulty of faith, if there is some part of his life where he is consciously resisting or disobeying the commandment of Jesus. Is there some part of your life which you are refusing to surrender at his behest, some sinful passion, maybe, or some animosity, some hope, perhaps your ambition or your reason? ... How can you hope to enter into communion with him when at some point in your life you are running away from him?

Jesus' call to bear the cross places all who follow him in the community of the forgiveness of sins. Forgiving sins is the Christ-suffering required of his disciples. It is required of all Christians.

Dietrich Bonhoeffer