Do all men hate God prior to hearing the gospel?

[mbkjpreacher]

Do all men hate God prior to hearing the gospel?  Or you believe that by nature all men love God.  

[SureWord]

17 minutes ago, mbkjpreacher said:

Do all men hate God prior to hearing the gospel?  Or you believe that by nature all men love God.  

According to scripture all unsaved men are lost, do not seek God, are his enemies, the children of wrath and the children of the devil. That's some heavy stuff but it's what scripture says.

That being said some men seem to love God and are even called righteous prior to their salvation such as Cornelius.

This seems like a contradiction but the former seems to be a man's standing before God while the latter his state in everyday life. A man can profess his love of God but still hate him because he has rejected God's salvation through his Son Jesus Christ.

Edited June 2, 2021 by SureWord

[mbkjpreacher]

2 minutes ago, SureWord said:

According to scripture all unsaved men are lost, do not seek God, are his enemies, the children of wrath and the children of the devil. That's some heavy stuff but it's what scripture says.

That being said some men seem to love God and are even called righteous prior to their salvation such as Cornelius.

This seems like a contradiction but the former seems to be a man's standing before God while the latter his state in everyday life. A man can profess his love of God but still hate him because he has rejected God's salvation through his Son Jesus Christ.

As in the case of Cornelius, he must have been under God's conviction that is why he sought God.  Perhaps, he already has heard about God and has read the Scriptures that he feared God, and that was leading to his salvation.  My question is about men according to their nature and are lost, and have not heard of the gospel truth.  

My second question is, if all men hate God, when does the change of mind and heart occur to respond to God in faith.  Was it before salvation or after.  Does he loves sin when he believed in God for salvation or there was already a change of mind from sin to loving God, and believing in Christ? 

[Hugh_Flower]

I think we can think of a God, point to a God, love a God. But not listen to God, obey God or know God.

if that makes sense it’s kinda how I view this

[Pastor Scott Markle]

I believe that the answer to the questions of the opening post (as well as some following posts) is somewhat dependent on how we are defining "hate" and "love" in this context.

If we are defining "love" for God as "living a life of obedience to God" (as per John 14:21, 23), then we might define "hate" (the opposite of love) for God as "living a life of disobedience against God" (as per John 14:24).  If we use these definitions, then all unbelievers (the children of disobedience) do indeed "hate" God.  (Note: According to such a definition, even believers sometimes "hate" God.)

However, it might be asked if there is a portion of Scripture which actually states that unbelievers "hate" God.  Furthermore, (considering some of the following questions above) it might be asked if there is a portion of Scripture which indicates that a person must "love" God before he or she can believe for salvation, or if "love" for God is a necessary characteristic for salvation.

[SureWord]

11 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

As in the case of Cornelius, he must have been under God's conviction that is why he sought God.  Perhaps, he already has heard about God and has read the Scriptures that he feared God, and that was leading to his salvation.  My question is about men according to their nature and are lost, and have not heard of the gospel truth.  

My second question is, if all men hate God, when does the change of mind and heart occur to respond to God in faith.  Was it before salvation or after.  Does he loves sin when he believed in God for salvation or there was already a change of mind from sin to loving God, and believing in Christ? 

Cornelius was said to be a righteous man who feared God BEFORE he heard the gospel. God made sure he got him the gospel. 

[John Young]

It is possible for the lost to be humble and contrite because that is the condition for God giving salvation. I also disagree that the lost are automatically children of the devil. Just as you must be born again spiritually to be a child of God, the lost have to spiritually become children of Satan by giving themselves wholly over to sin. Just as there is the seed God's children is sown, so too is the seed of Satan.

Iaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Matthew 13:38 the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

[Ukulelemike]

20 minutes ago, John Young said:

It is possible for the lost to be humble and contrite because that is the condition for God giving salvation. I also disagree that the lost are automatically children of the devil. Just as you must be born again spiritually to be a child of God, the lost have to spiritually become children of Satan by giving themselves wholly over to sin. Just as there is the seed God's children is sown, so too is the seed of Satan.

Iaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Matthew 13:38 the field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

I think I have to disagree with you, on whether all who are lost are the children of the Devil. The Bible doesn't seem to give any space to be anything but one or the other. If you are lost, you're bound for Hell, and therefore are the child of the Devil, even if you're a 'nice guy'. But if you're born again, and going to heaven, you're the child of God, even if you're carnal and kind of a jerk. In fact, sometimes that nice guys can be the furthest from the Lord and the hardest to save, because in their minds, they're alright. That was a stumbling block for my wife for many years, as she always heard the stories of the terrible people, drug abusers, thieves, pornographers, murderers, who were wonderfully converted to Christ, while she didn't feel she was that bad, in comparison. It took her years to understand the wickedness before God of her New Age idolatry, because it seemed so benign, and her fornication, because it was just 'sharing her love.'  Eventually she had to come to a realization that God WAS real and the Bible WAS true, for her to understand just how bad her sin was before a just God. 

[mbkjpreacher]

On 6/2/2021 at 9:50 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I believe that the answer to the questions of the opening post (as well as some following posts) is somewhat dependent on how we are defining "hate" and "love" in this context.

If we are defining "love" for God as "living a life of obedience to God" (as per John 14:21, 23), then we might define "hate" (the opposite of love) for God as "living a life of disobedience against God" (as per John 14:24).  If we use these definitions, then all unbelievers (the children of disobedience) do indeed "hate" God.  (Note: According to such a definition, even believers sometimes "hate" God.)

However, it might be asked if there is a portion of Scripture which actually states that unbelievers "hate" God.  Furthermore, (considering some of the following questions above) it might be asked if there is a portion of Scripture which indicates that a person must "love" God before he or she can believe for salvation, or if "love" for God is a necessary characteristic for salvation.

Here are the Scriptures that unbelievers hate God:  

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
(Romans 1:28-30)
 

But there is a condition in which sinners can respond in love and faith to God, that is at the point they hear the gospel.  

 

We love him, because he first loved us.
(1 John 4:19)
 

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
(Galatians 5:5-6)
 

What can you say about these verses 

 

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

10 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

What can you say about these verses 

In this posting I wish to consider just Romans 1:28-30 -

10 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

Here are the Scriptures that unbelievers hate God:  

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
(Romans 1:28-30) (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Herein we do indeed have a passage of Scripture which directly states that unbelievers are "haters of God."  However, the opening question for this thread discussion was whether or not ALL unbelievers hate God, as follows -

On 6/1/2021 at 10:07 PM, mbkjpreacher said:

Do all men hate God prior to hearing the gospel?  Or you believe that by nature all men love God.  

So then, does Romans 1:28-30 precisely teach that ALL unbelievers are "haters of God."  I am compelled to contend that Romans 1:28-30 does NOT precisely teach that ALL unbelievers are "haters of God."  In Romans 1:18-32 we encounter a five step progression of ungodliness and unrighteousness within an unbelieving society:

Step 1 - They know of God's existence, but do not glorify Him as God. (vs. 18-21)
Step 2 - They change the glory of uncorruptible God into an image of corruptible creation. (vs. 22-23)
Step 3 - God Himself gives them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts. (vs. 24-25)
Step 4 - God Himself gives them up unto vile affections. (vs. 26-27)
Step 5 - God Himself gives them over to a reprobate mind. (vs. 28-32)

If we view Romans 1:18-32 according to this progression, then we would be compelled to acknowledge that the descriptive concerning unbelievers as "haters of God" does not precisely occur unto the fifth and final step of the progression, wherein God has given unbelieving society "over to a reprobate mind."  Now, this does NOT necessarily indicate that unbelievers are not "haters of God" prior to this stage of the progression.  Rather, this is to indicate that the passage itself does not precisely teach that ALL unbelievers are "haters of God," but only those unbelievers who are in the "reprobate mind" stage.  (Now, if Romans 1:18-32 is not viewed as a progression, then this "argument" might not be viewed as valid.)

(Note: This "argument" concerning Romans 1:18-32 does not cancel my earlier posting concerning the definition of "hate" and "love" in relation to unbelievers and the matter of disobedience and obedience.) 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Pastor Scott Markle

[BrotherTony]

10 hours ago, mbkjpreacher said:

Here are the Scriptures that unbelievers hate God:  

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
(Romans 1:28-30)
 

But there is a condition in which sinners can respond in love and faith to God, that is at the point they hear the gospel.  

 

We love him, because he first loved us.
(1 John 4:19)
 

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
(Galatians 5:5-6)
 

What can you say about these verses 

 

 

The portion I highlighted in your question...are you using this verse in the being of a person BEFORE they know Christ? I don't believe this is what the writer is trying to convey here, at least not in whole. Yes, it may be that right before their salvation they come to love God because of his sacrifice on mankinds behalf, and the salvation provided. I believe it is more in the line of us loving Christ after salvation because he first loved us...our love for him continues to grow as we grow in him.

Edited August 9, 2021 by BrotherTony

[Hugh_Flower]

What about Abraham, Lot, David? 

[BrotherTony]

27 minutes ago, Hugh_Flower said:

What about Abraham, Lot, David? 

Would you please clarify what you're looking for, Hugh? Thanks.

[Hugh_Flower]

1 minute ago, BrotherTony said:

Would you please clarify what you're looking for, Hugh? Thanks.

It’s more rhetorical for the sake of my understanding- but the question “Do all men hate God prior to hearing the gospel“, I understand the question but contextually this question must also apply to those in the Old Testament. And if we apply it to the people in the Old Testament we must further define what the question means.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ?
The Gospel, that men are sinners and only by Grace of the Lord may we be redeemed? (Further Revealed to be Christ)

Are these the same? I’d say yes of course they are. As before the blood and as after.

I think the answer is No. one cannot know the Love of God without knowing the gospel message. For even before in the Old Testament one had to be convicted of their own sins to know and love God.

[BrotherTony]

29 minutes ago, Hugh_Flower said:

It’s more rhetorical for the sake of my understanding- but the question “Do all men hate God prior to hearing the gospel“, I understand the question but contextually this question must also apply to those in the Old Testament. And if we apply it to the people in the Old Testament we must further define what the question means.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ?
The Gospel, that men are sinners and only by Grace of the Lord may we be redeemed? (Further Revealed to be Christ)

Are these the same? I’d say yes of course they are. As before the blood and as after.

I think the answer is No. one cannot know the Love of God without knowing the gospel message. For even before in the Old Testament one had to be convicted of their own sins to know and love God.

Yes...the old testament looked forward to the cross. Anyone reading the OT could know that there would be a messiah, and that he had to be put to death and rise again. It's too bad that they allowed themselves to be blinded by unbelief. And the New Testament saints look back towards the cross, fully receiving that sacrifice for sins for their salvation. I think you've given a great assessment there!