Calvinism

[Yeshuafan]

50 minutes ago, SureWord said:

You don't have any scripural proof for this. It's pure private interpetation. 

Nobody is elected to be saved or damned by the arbitrary will of God. This is nothing but the deluded reasonings of the Protestant Pope, i.e.  John Calvin. This is no different than the RCCs limbo fantasy nonsense. Pure conjecture. You are elected to be conformed to the image of God's dear Son when you accept him as you Lord and Savior. The predestination was set by the foreknowledge of God but it doesn't kick in until after you exercise your freewill by faith in the gospel. Not before. You have the cart before the horse.

The only thing that you can scriptural support concerning babies is that God does not impute sin to them when there is no knowledge of the law whether scriptural or the law of God written on the heart. Therefore, even though the are sinful, as proven by death, sin is not imputed to them therefore they die in innocency. 

Even in this case there is no mention whether babies who die are part of the body of Christ. They end up in heaven is all we know.

We are chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world though, and Predestination is a great doctrine to the saved, as gives comfort and assurance!

[Jim_Alaska]

Until you use Scripture your ideas are nothing more than your ideas, which, by-the-way, border on the absurd.

Here is an example of using Scripture to prove a biblical point:

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
 

[SureWord]

8 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

We are chosen in Jesus before the foundation of the world though, and Predestination is a great doctrine to the saved, as gives comfort and assurance!

Do you believe God predestined billions of people to go to hell?

I do not believe you really do, at least in your heart, because then you wouldn't be trying to get people to come to your church to hear the gospel. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by SureWord

[Yeshuafan]

11 hours ago, SureWord said:

Do you believe God predestined billions of people to go to hell?

I do not believe you really do, at least in your heart, because then you wouldn't be trying to get people to come to your church to hear the gospel. 

I believe that Predestination only refers to God directly working to save out His own, and that he does not predestine lost to Hell, as they choose that for themselves!

[Ukulelemike]

39 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

I believe that Predestination only refers to God directly working to save out His own, and that he does not predestine lost to Hell, as they choose that for themselves!

By default, if God chooses who will go to Heaven, then he has also chosen who will go to hell, thus taking the choice out of man's hand. 

 

[Ukulelemike]

As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7:

7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8: But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10: And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look particularly at verse 9: How was Paul, born Saul, under the law of Moses, alive once without the law? Simply, as a child, before the law came, or came to his understanding. Once it came, then that sin, which was present, (but ineffective, sleeping, dormant?) REVIVED, and he spiritually died.  This can only speak to the idea that, while present, sin has no effect on that person until they understand the law, or if you will, right and wrong, and can sin willfully, (doesn't mean they do, just the understanding of it awakens), at which point, that present sin revives, and that person becomes spiritually dead and in need of salvation. It isn't about an AGE of accountability, it is about understanding, which brings accountability.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

20 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7:

7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8: But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10: And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look particularly at verse 9: How was Paul, born Saul, under the law of Moses, alive once without the law? Simply, as a child, before the law came, or came to his understanding. Once it came, then that sin, which was present, (but ineffective, sleeping, dormant?) REVIVED, and he spiritually died.  This can only speak to the idea that, while present, sin has no effect on that person until they understand the law, or if you will, right and wrong, and can sin willfully, (doesn't mean they do, just the understanding of it awakens), at which point, that present sin revives, and that person becomes spiritually dead and in need of salvation. It isn't about an AGE of accountability, it is about understanding, which brings accountability.

IF this is true (which I myself do NOT accept), then --

1.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was "without the law" BEFORE he was under the law. 
     This would mean --
     a.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not under any obligation to the law.
     b.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not under any condemnation by the law.
     c.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a sinner "legally" in the sight of God the Judge.
     d.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul had no need for God's saving works of forgiveness,
           imputation, propitiation, or justification.

2.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was spiritually "alive" BEFORE he was spiritually dead. 
     This would mean --
     a.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins."
     b.  There was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a child of darkness, disobedience, and wrath.
     c.  Thus there was a time wherein Paul/Saul was not a sinner "literally" in his spiritual condition.
     d.  There there was a time wherein Paul/Saul had no need for God's saving works of cleansing,
           regeneration, redemption, or reconciliation.

(Note: I myself am compelled to contend that holding this viewpoint is completely contrary and destructive to the Biblical doctrines of mankind's sinfulness and of God's saving grace.  I myself am not willing to do this, in order to solve the "baby problem.")

Edited December 23, 2020 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Yeshuafan]

22 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

By default, if God chooses who will go to Heaven, then he has also chosen who will go to hell, thus taking the choice out of man's hand. 

 

All who go to Hell freely are choosing to go there, and they loved the darkness more then the Light!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

56 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

All who go to Hell freely are choosing to go there, and they loved the darkness more then the Light!

Yet according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they have any ability whatsoever at all to choose the Light?

Or according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they choose to love the darkness more than the Light because God was unwilling to grant them any ability whatsoever at all to choose otherwise?

(Note: Remember that according to the Calvinistic system of belief, a sinner chooses the Light through faith only AFTER and BECAUSE God grants the ability and the compulsion through His work of regeneration.)

[Yeshuafan]

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yet according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they have any ability whatsoever at all to choose the Light?

Or according to the Calvinistic system of belief, did they choose to love the darkness more than the Light because God was unwilling to grant them any ability whatsoever at all to choose otherwise?

(Note: Remember that according to the Calvinistic system of belief, a sinner chooses the Light through faith only AFTER and BECAUSE God grants the ability and the compulsion through His work of regeneration.)

Even non calvinists would recognize that natural man can do nothing concerning their spiritual state unless and  until God Himself intervenes!

[SureWord]

On 12/22/2020 at 12:10 PM, Yeshuafan said:

I believe that Predestination only refers to God directly working to save out His own, and that he does not predestine lost to Hell, as they choose that for themselves!

So then you have the free wiil to reject but not to accept? That's a contradiction.

Again, predestination occurs for those who freely receive the gift. Yes, it is based on foreknowledge but foreknowledge of those who of their own free will exercise faith in the gospel.  It is predestination to conformity of the image of Christ not predestination to salvation.

[SureWord]

On 12/22/2020 at 12:58 PM, Ukulelemike said:

As for the issue of infants, Paul, I believe, made this answer clear, for those who will hear it: Romans 7:

7: What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8: But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9: For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10: And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11: For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look particularly at verse 9: How was Paul, born Saul, under the law of Moses, alive once without the law? Simply, as a child, before the law came, or came to his understanding. Once it came, then that sin, which was present, (but ineffective, sleeping, dormant?) REVIVED, and he spiritually died.  This can only speak to the idea that, while present, sin has no effect on that person until they understand the law, or if you will, right and wrong, and can sin willfully, (doesn't mean they do, just the understanding of it awakens), at which point, that present sin revives, and that person becomes spiritually dead and in need of salvation. It isn't about an AGE of accountability, it is about understanding, which brings accountability.

It's so clear I don't see how anyone can miss it. 

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. It doesn't mean no sin nature which is evident since a baby can die. But sin is not imputed. If it was you would end up with:

1) Babies going to hell unless all babies who die were elected, i.e. only elect babies die.

2) All babies being elected until the knowledge of sin and then becoming unelected and falling out of the body of Christ.

Roma's 5:12-14

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Edited December 23, 2020 by SureWord

[Yeshuafan]

35 minutes ago, SureWord said:

It's so clear I don't see how anyone can miss it. 

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. It doesn't mean no sin nature which is evident since a baby can die. But sin is not imputed. If it was you would end up with:

1) Babies going to hell unless all babies who die were elected, i.e. only elect babies die.

2) All babies being elected until the knowledge of sin and then becoming unelected and falling out of the body of Christ.

Roma's 5:12-14

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

We were all in Adam in the Fall, as we all died in Adam, but the saved shall be made alive again in the second Adam. Christ Jesus!

42 minutes ago, SureWord said:

So then you have the free wiil to reject but not to accept? That's a contradiction.

Again, predestination occurs for those who freely receive the gift. Yes, it is based on foreknowledge but foreknowledge of those who of their own free will exercise faith in the gospel.  It is predestination to conformity of the image of Christ not predestination to salvation.

free will is to decide to reject being saved though....

[Pastor Scott Markle]

20 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

Even non calvinists would recognize that natural man can do nothing concerning their spiritual state unless and  until God Himself intervenes!

Indeed, as a non-Calvinist I most certainly WOULD recognize that the "natural man can do nothing concerning [his] spiritual state unless and until God Himself intervenes."  However, the difference in the Calvinistic system of belief and my non-Calvinistic system of belief is the following:

1.  The Calvinistic system of belief teaches that God only intervenes for SOME, and is NOT WILLING to intervene for the rest, and thus those among "the rest" have no ability whatsoever at all ever to choose anything different than to love the darkness rather than the Light.

2.  The non-Calvinistic system of belief teaches that God has promised to and actually does intervene for ALL, by means of His drawing work upon ALL, thereby granting ALL the ability and opportunity to choose the light of Christ over their darkness of sin.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastor Scott Markle]

15 hours ago, SureWord said:

It's so clear I don't see how anyone can miss it. 

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. It doesn't mean no sin nature which is evident since a baby can die. But sin is not imputed.

So then, you have young children who have "no imputed sin" in their "legal" standing before God, but are dead in sin (having a sin nature) in their "literal" spiritual condition.  If this is so, then --

1.  Because they are not sinners in their "legal" standing before God, they have no need for God's saving works of forgiveness, propitiation, imputed righteousness, or justification, all through Christ.

2.  Because they are indeed sinners in their "literal" spiritual condition (having a sin nature), they are still in need for God's saving works of cleaning, redemption, regeneration, and reconciliations, all through Christ.  Thus I would ask -- How do young children that die acquire God's saving works of cleansing, redemption, regeneration, and reconciliations apart from faith in Christ?

By the way, IF Romans 7:9 is applied to young children before the time of accountability, then it stands in contradiction to your above position.  In Romans 7:9 Paul stated, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came , sin revived, and I died."  In this verse, the apostle did not talk about the "legal" imputation of sin upon his account.  Rather, he talked about the matter of his spiritual life and death.  If he was spiritually alive before some "time of accountability," then he was not spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins," and thus did NOT possess a sin nature.  For those who possess a sin nature are "dead" by spiritual nature.  

(Note: I myself do NOT believe that Romans 7:9 contextually applies to young children before some time of accountability, but that it contextually applies to a brand new believer immediately after conversion.)

 

15 hours ago, SureWord said:

No knowledge of the law, whether written in the law of Moses or on the heart of man, means no imputed sin. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

As an additional question, according to God's Word when exactly is the work of the law written in the heart of the human individual?  When exactly does the conscience begin to bear witness?  When exactly does it become natural for the human individual "to do BY NATURE the things contained in the law"?

 

15 hours ago, SureWord said:

Roma's 5:12-14

[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1.  According to Romans 5:12, upon how many of mankind did death pass?
2.  According to Romans 5:12, how many among mankind have sinned?
3.  According to Romans 5:13, was sin in the world BEFORE the law of Moses?
4.  According to Romans 5:13, when is sin not imputed?
5.  So then, was sin imputed BEFORE the law of Moses?
6.  So then, if sin was indeed imputed before the law of Moses, by what law was it imputed?
7.  So then, if sin was not imputed before the law of Moses, why did death reign from Adam to Moses?
8.  So then, can death reign apart from sinfulness and/or imputed sin?
9.  So then, is death the very consequence for imputed sin? (See Romans 5:12, 15, 21)

10.  According to Romans 5:15, how were many made to "be dead," by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
11.  According to Romans 5:17, how did death come to reign upon all men (as per Romans 5:12), by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
12.  According to Romans 5:18, upon how many of mankind did judgment come unto condemnation (which are legal terms of accountability)?
13.  According to Romans 5:18, how did judgment unto condemnation come upon mankind, by the consequence of their own sinful offense, or by the consequence of someone else's sinful offense?
14.  According to Romans 5:19, how are we "made sinners," by the consequence of our own disobedience, or by the consequence of someone else's disobedience?

Here then is the truth -- NOT because of my own sin, BUT because of Adam's first sin, I am made (at my beginning) a sinner and made (at my beginning) to "be dead," having death reigning over me and having judgment unto condemnation upon me.  This was already true for me BEFORE my own first act of sin, and my acts of sin only add to the abundance of this spiritual problem.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Pastor Scott Markle