Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

[Jordan Kurecki]

Many preachers teach that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teaches that the sign gifts will cease, the claim is that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scriptures. However I have a hard time seeing how the completed scriptures were what enable Paul to "know even as I also am known". I am beginning to wonder if this interpretation of this passage of scripture is a knee jerk reaction to charismatic doctrine and chaos? I see it as a definite possibility that what the "perfect" is and what Paul means by "then shall I know even as I also am known" as a reference to our condition in glory, or something of that nature. So I have several questions

1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts?

2. Can we know with certainty based on Biblical exegesis that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scripture? or do we just say that because we have heard preachers teach that? 

This was the closest to an acceptable explanation that I could find about vs 12, but I still have trouble and feel like it glosses over the phrase "shall know even as also am known"

"The word translated as glass (esoptron esoptron) literally refers to 
a mirror. The ancients did not have the technology to make useful mirrors from glass. Rather, they were made from polished metal. Of course, the imagery thereon was not clear, but somewhat fuzzy. The word translated as darkly (ainigma ainigma) is whence the English word enigma derives. Here it has the sense of ‘not clearly,’ or as the Authorized Version renders it, darkly. The idea was of the obtuse imagery of ancient mirrors. The application was to the limited degree of spiritual understanding and knowledge present in the early church ab- sent the New Testament. 
However, the day was coming when they would see “face to face.” His point is simple. Though in spite of God’s gracious gifts to the early church, their understanding and grasp of New Testament truth was like looking into a polished piece of metal as a mirror. The image was there, but not clear. However, the day was not distant when their understanding would be like seeing face to face. He continued, in that day I “shall know even as also I am known.” When the New Testament was completed, their knowledge of things spiritual would be as sharp as seeing each other face to face." -From David Sorenson's Commentary on 1st Corinthians.

 

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there beprophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Jordan,

As a believer in our Lord and His word I would like to make a few comments.

Christ is building and maturing His Body. I think we would all agree on that. Then in Paul`s letter to the Ephesians he explains, by the Holy Spirit, that when Christ ascended He gave of Himself, of His giftings - Apostleship, Prophets, teachers, pastors and evangelists. Christ Himself is the embodiment of these. They are His ministries, the Head of the Body giving His ministries to build up and mature His Body.

`When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto (of) men. ........He gave some apostles and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ; till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:

that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things which is the head, even Christ...` (Eph. 4: 8, 11 - 15)

Now I realise that you were speaking concerning the Holy Spirit`s gifts, however the 5 fold ministry of the ascended Lord obviously are given wisdom, prophetic unction, words of knowledge etc by the Holy Spirit to be able to function in their ministry. Thus yes, I firmly believe that Christ the Head of the Body is operating throughout His Body and imparting the necessary enablings as required.

The difficulty is that the false always gets the air play and the real are operating as Paul did along the dusty roads, often getting beaten, misunderstood, yet reaching those who are receptive. The day of the big upfront ministers in over, I believe and it is the Body of Christ across the world, in their everyday settings that are relating and mentoring and discipling and working with the Holy Spirit, that will bring the completion of the Body to maturity.

`Christ, from whom the whole body fitly and joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.` (Eph. 4: 16.

regards, Marilyn.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Marilyn C

[Alan]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:25 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

Many preachers teach that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teaches that the sign gifts will cease, the claim is that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scriptures. However I have a hard time seeing how the completed scriptures were what enable Paul to "know even as I also am known". I am beginning to wonder if this interpretation of this passage of scripture is a knee jerk reaction to charismatic doctrine and chaos? I see it as a definite possibility that what the "perfect" is and what Paul means by "then shall I know even as I also am known" as a reference to our condition in glory, or something of that nature. So I have several questions

1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts?

2. Can we know with certainty based on Biblical exegesis that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scripture? or do we just say that because we have heard preachers teach that? 

This was the closest to an acceptable explanation that I could find about vs 12, but I still have trouble and feel like it glosses over the phrase "shall know even as also am known"

"The word translated as glass (esoptron esoptron) literally refers to 
a mirror. The ancients did not have the technology to make useful mirrors from glass. Rather, they were made from polished metal. Of course, the imagery thereon was not clear, but somewhat fuzzy. The word translated as darkly (ainigma ainigma) is whence the English word enigma derives. Here it has the sense of ‘not clearly,’ or as the Authorized Version renders it, darkly. The idea was of the obtuse imagery of ancient mirrors. The application was to the limited degree of spiritual understanding and knowledge present in the early church ab- sent the New Testament. 
However, the day was coming when they would see “face to face.” His point is simple. Though in spite of God’s gracious gifts to the early church, their understanding and grasp of New Testament truth was like looking into a polished piece of metal as a mirror. The image was there, but not clear. However, the day was not distant when their understanding would be like seeing face to face. He continued, in that day I “shall know even as also I am known.” When the New Testament was completed, their knowledge of things spiritual would be as sharp as seeing each other face to face." -From David Sorenson's Commentary on 1st Corinthians.

 

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there beprophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

At the completion of the canon of scripture, the Book of Revelation, the church was not a child but a mature adult. As an adult, the church did not need the prophecies of the New Testament prophets as recorded in the book of Acts, the gift of biblical tongues, languages, and the knowledge that the prophets had. All of these gifts ceased at the completion of the New Testament canon of scriptures.

All, may I repeat all, of the apostles, prophets, and the so-called "tongues" gifts in our age are false. The church, the body of Christ, is mature and not a child. The written scriptures are the only, may I repeat, the only body of knowledge and prophecies that the church needs. A child needs to lead by the hand by a tutor; an adult does not. The prophets and the 12 apostles (please note I said 12 Apostles), were the tutors of the early church. The "early" church was the church in the child stage.  The sign gifts: Prophesies, Knowledge and the gift of tongues were childish things. The mature Christian, a mature church, does not need these "childish things" that are recorded in 1 Corinthians 13:8-11  

1 Corinthians 13:8 is explained by Paul in verses 10 and 11

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Now I realise that you were speaking concerning the Holy Spirit`s gifts, however the 5 fold ministry of the ascended Lord obviously are given wisdom, prophetic unction, words of knowledge etc by the Holy Spirit to be able to function in their ministry. Thus yes, I firmly believe that Christ the Head of the Body is operating throughout His Body and imparting the necessary enablings as required.

The difficulty is that the false always gets the air play and the real are operating as Paul did along the dusty roads, often getting beaten, misunderstood, yet reaching those who are receptive. The day of the big upfront ministers in over, I believe and it is the Body of Christ across the world, in their everyday settings that are relating and mentoring and discipling and working with the Holy Spirit, that will bring the completion of the Body to maturity.

regards, Marilyn.

 Marilyn,

In connection to your above post, in order to fully know your statement, please answer the following three questions.

1. Do you still believe that there are apostles in the world today?

2. Do you consider yourself an apostle?

3. Does the church that you attend have "apostles?"

The scriptures, not a Greek dictionary, defined an Apostle as an disciple who was personally, and audibly, called, and chose, by the Lord Jesus Christ face to face. "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles." Luke 6:13 The twelve apostles were audibly, personably, and in the presence of the Lord Jesus, called, and chosen, to be an apostle. After the death of John the apostle the office of the Apostle ceased to exist.

Alan

 

[wretched]

10 minutes ago, Alan said:

The scriptures, not a Greek dictionary, defined an Apostle as an disciple who was personally, and audibly, called, and chose, by the Lord Jesus Christ face to face. "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles." Luke 6:13 The twelve apostles were audibly, personably, and in the presence of the Lord Jesus, called, and chosen, to be an apostle. After the death of John the apostle the office of the Apostle ceased to exist.

I didn't quote your whole post brother but agree with every word and was about to write/ask something similar. 

 

[DaveW]

Thanks Jordan - this has prompted me to do a new study on this subject and I have enjoyed my time (as yet unfinished).

 

I will only point out at this time that only one single "sign gift" is mentioned in this chapter - tongues. As such it is not a relevant passage to conclude that ALL sign gifts have ceased.

(I believe that they have by the way, but this is not the passage to prove it from.)

 

 

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, Alan said:

At the completion of the canon of scripture, the Book of Revelation, the church was not a child but a mature adult. As an adult, the church did not need the prophecies of the New Testament prophets as recorded in the book of Acts, the gift of biblical tongues, languages, and the knowledge that the prophets had. All of these gifts ceased at the completion of the New Testament canon of scriptures.

All, may I repeat all, of the apostles, prophets, and the so-called "tongues" gifts in our age are false. The church, the body of Christ, is mature and not a child. The written scriptures are the only, may I repeat, the only body of knowledge and prophecies that the church needs. A child needs to lead by the hand by a tutor; an adult does not. The prophets and the 12 apostles (please note I said 12 Apostles), were the tutors of the early church. The "early" church was the church in the child stage.  The sign gifts: Prophesies, Knowledge and the gift of tongues were childish things. The mature Christian, a mature church, does not need these "childish things" that are recorded in 1 Corinthians 13:8-11  

1 Corinthians 13:8 is explained by Paul in verses 10 and 11

 Marilyn,

In connection to your above post, in order to fully know your statement, please answer the following three questions.

1. Do you still believe that there are apostles in the world today?

2. Do you consider yourself an apostle?

3. Does the church that you attend have "apostles?"

The scriptures, not a Greek dictionary, defined an Apostle as an disciple who was personally, and audibly, called, and chose, by the Lord Jesus Christ face to face. "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles." Luke 6:13 The twelve apostles were audibly, personably, and in the presence of the Lord Jesus, called, and chosen, to be an apostle. After the death of John the apostle the office of the Apostle ceased to exist.

Alan

 

Hi Alan,

No I do not consider myself as an Apostle and am not recognised as an Apostle.

I agree that the 12 Apostles were those chosen of the Lord and that when another was needed to fulfil Judas` place there was a certain criteria -

`Wherefore of these men which accompanied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of His resurrection.` (Acts 1: 21 & 22)

However....when the Lord ascended to the right Hand of the Father we know He gave gifts of men - apostles, prophets, etc. These all came after the Lord ascended.

So do you believe there are teachers, evangelists, pastors today? We see those ministries operating in the book of Acts.

Is the Body of Christ still` tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine?`  Then we have not come to the maturity of faith, of the knowledge of Christ and His purposes. Yes the early Body of Christ had the full  counsel of God, but we know that the apostle Paul warned that there would come in among the believers `savage wolves.` And we have seen down through the ages such heresies and errors, till finally over the Body of Christ there has come realisation of salvation through Christ alone, baptism in water, (for which truth many died), holy living, infilling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the ministries of the ascended Lord and finally the eternal purposes.

All truths which the Lord said His Holy Spirit would guide the Body into understanding.

regards, Marilyn.

[Marilyn C]

On ‎12‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 6:25 AM, Jordan Kurecki said:

Many preachers teach that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teaches that the sign gifts will cease, the claim is that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scriptures. However I have a hard time seeing how the completed scriptures were what enable Paul to "know even as I also am known". I am beginning to wonder if this interpretation of this passage of scripture is a knee jerk reaction to charismatic doctrine and chaos? I see it as a definite possibility that what the "perfect" is and what Paul means by "then shall I know even as I also am known" as a reference to our condition in glory, or something of that nature. So I have several questions

1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts?

2. Can we know with certainty based on Biblical exegesis that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scripture? or do we just say that because we have heard preachers teach that? 

This was the closest to an acceptable explanation that I could find about vs 12, but I still have trouble and feel like it glosses over the phrase "shall know even as also am known"

"The word translated as glass (esoptron esoptron) literally refers to 
a mirror. The ancients did not have the technology to make useful mirrors from glass. Rather, they were made from polished metal. Of course, the imagery thereon was not clear, but somewhat fuzzy. The word translated as darkly (ainigma ainigma) is whence the English word enigma derives. Here it has the sense of ‘not clearly,’ or as the Authorized Version renders it, darkly. The idea was of the obtuse imagery of ancient mirrors. The application was to the limited degree of spiritual understanding and knowledge present in the early church ab- sent the New Testament. 
However, the day was coming when they would see “face to face.” His point is simple. Though in spite of God’s gracious gifts to the early church, their understanding and grasp of New Testament truth was like looking into a polished piece of metal as a mirror. The image was there, but not clear. However, the day was not distant when their understanding would be like seeing face to face. He continued, in that day I “shall know even as also I am known.” When the New Testament was completed, their knowledge of things spiritual would be as sharp as seeing each other face to face." -From David Sorenson's Commentary on 1st Corinthians.

 

1Co 13:8  Charity never faileth: but whether there beprophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1Co 13:12  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Hi Jordan,

I thought I`d add this also.

1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

perfect - Gk. word `teleios` meaning complete (in various applications of labour, growth, mental and moral character etc) completeness of full age, man, perfect.

`...till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the fullness of Christ...` (Eph. 4: 13)

The Body of Christ still has some way to go to come to the PERFECT MAN by the Holy Spirit. And when the Body of Christ comes to completeness then it will no longer need prophesy, knowledge etc

regards, Marilyn.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Marilyn C

[DaveW]

5 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Jordan,

I thought I`d add this also.

1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

perfect - Gk. word `teleios` meaning complete (in various applications of labour, growth, mental and moral character etc) completeness of full age, man, perfect.

`...till we all come in the unity of the faith, and the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT MAN, unto the measure of the fullness of Christ...` (Eph. 4: 13)

The Body of Christ still has some way to go to come to the PERFECT MAN by the Holy Spirit. And when the Body of Christ comes to completeness then it will no longer need prophesy, knowledge etc

regards, Marilyn.

Bzzzz - wrong.

The subject of the passage is knowledge and understanding.

The "Body of Christ" is nowhere mentioned in this passage(1 Cor 13), and for you to apply it to this has absolutely no justification, and your application of the phrase "perfect man" to somehow relate to the "body of Christ" also has no justification. 

[Marilyn C]

33 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Bzzzz - wrong.

The subject of the passage is knowledge and understanding.

The "Body of Christ" is nowhere mentioned in this passage(1 Cor 13), and for you to apply it to this has absolutely no justification, and your application of the phrase "perfect man" to somehow relate to the "body of Christ" also has no justification. 

Hi Dave,

Mmmmm If we look at the chapter before 1 Cor. 13 we see that the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul is describing the Body of Christ -

`Now ye are the body of Christ and members in particular.` (1 Cor. 12: 27)

regards, Marilyn.

[DaveW]

uhhh - chapter BEFORE.... the whole subject has moved on, and Paul specifically contrasts what is "in part" with "that which is in perfect".

That which is "in part" is designated as knowledge and prophecy, therefore "that which is perfect" is the perfection of that.

1Co 13:9-10
(9)  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10)  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

 

 

[Alan]

Dave,

Thank you.

Alan

[Alan]

6 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

infilling of the Holy Spirit, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the ministries of the ascended Lord and finally the eternal purposes.

Marilyn,

In relation to the current Charismatic, Apostolic, Movement in our age, please exp ound your beliefs on what you mentioned as the infilling of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit can mean different things to different people in the churches in our age.

Specifically:

1. The infilling of the Holy Spirit. Is the current meaning of the Charismatic Movement "sign" of being filled with the Holy Spirit the gift of the modern incoherent Tongues Movement as seen in the Charismatic, Pentecostal, or Apostolic meetings, a sign of a person being "filled with the Holy Spirit?"

2. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Is the Charismatic, or so-called, gift of tongues, babbling in an incoherent language, a gift of the Holy Spirit?   

Thank you for your response.

Alan

[wretched]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:25 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

"know even as I also am known".

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This verse in the context of the passage is not referring to Heaven at all but that we can know everything God wants us to know now because He gave it all to us in His Word. I believe this indicates that we can know God as well as we know ourselves if we cared enough to saturate ourselves in His Word like we saturate ourselves in self-interests.

The context is dealing with how God delivered His Word pre-Bible completion and post-Bible completion. The key is not reliance on men any longer but reliance on the poured out Spirit of God to teach His Word. The Holy Spirit combined with God's complete Revelation to man eliminates any intermediary "prophesy, revelation and interpretation" from men.

Interpretation of this context is critical in what road a believer takes with Apostolic Succession. Either Apostolic succession ended with the deaths of the Apostles in total, or all of it is still currently for us. If we believe Apostolic succession continues through this day and age then we support the one false doctrine that has perpetuated ALL false doctrine. That is the elevation of man equal to Scripture and is nicolaitan doctrine. If men did not elevate themselves into something more than an equal believer (as Christ instructed) then people would not follow their teachings without verification simply because they believe the nonsense that these men are called above others and have some kind of special "anointing" above others. After 4000 years, God's people still demand kings to rule over them, this is the doctrine God hates. 

 

[Marilyn C]

17 hours ago, DaveW said:

uhhh - chapter BEFORE.... the whole subject has moved on, and Paul specifically contrasts what is "in part" with "that which is in perfect".

That which is "in part" is designated as knowledge and prophecy, therefore "that which is perfect" is the perfection of that.

1Co 13:9-10
(9)  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10)  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

Hi Dave,

Yes it`s good to read the context of the whole topic, as we know the letter Paul wrote didn`t have chapter divisions. So we see in ch. 12 (1 Cor.) that the gifts of the Spirit are shown for the benefit of the Body. Then Paul encourages the believers to seek to have these but most of all desire the grow in love for that will never pass away. The other gifts needed for the growth of the Body of Christ will eventually pass away as the Body will have grown to maturity. Thus ch. 13 is very important to follow on from ch. 12 to give the believers the right focus - the heart attitude.

`But covert earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. though I speak with tongues of men and angels and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or tinkling cymbal.` (1 Cor. 12: 31  &  13: 1)

regards, Marilyn. 

13 hours ago, Alan said:

Marilyn,

In relation to the current Charismatic, Apostolic, Movement in our age, please exp ound your beliefs on what you mentioned as the infilling of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Holy Spirit can mean different things to different people in the churches in our age.

Specifically:

1. The infilling of the Holy Spirit. Is the current meaning of the Charismatic Movement "sign" of being filled with the Holy Spirit the gift of the modern incoherent Tongues Movement as seen in the Charismatic, Pentecostal, or Apostolic meetings, a sign of a person being "filled with the Holy Spirit?"

2. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit: Is the Charismatic, or so-called, gift of tongues, babbling in an incoherent language, a gift of the Holy Spirit?   

Thank you for your response.

Alan

Hi Alan,

I have never belonged (?) to any of those current movements, as they are all driven and have gross error. The last church denomination my hubby and I attended for many years was a local Anglican Church where Hubby was an elder (Presbytery) and I trained up the musicians and led a ladies group. Due to CFS we now meet with other believers as able.

I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are the ones mentioned in 1 Cor. 12: 8 - 10. It is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Christ and it is He that indwells the believer. There are many `signs` of the Holy Spirit`s presence,-  fruits of the Spirit, wisdom & knowledge of His word, healing and prophecy, etc. Many of these can be counterfeited, as we know.

regards, Marilyn.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Marilyn C

[DaveW]

Ah bur chapter 11 is talking about prayer, and even mentions prophesying, so that which is perfect must be prayer........

Really ???

Subjects move and change through the letters, and the subject is clearly not the body in the verses in question.