Israel debunks Calvinism

[InSeasonOut]

* IDK the categories very well yet so I hope this is the right place to post this *

Does Israel debunk Calvinism? I believe so. I would appreciate your thoughts on this to "fine tune" it. And I never heard Calvinism debunked like this. I give credit to the Lord for showing me this...

I'm referring to the "U" in TULIP - "Unconditional Election", where a short summary would be that "God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation." - In plain speech, no free will, when someone hears the gospel, if they are "non-elect" they can't make the choice to be saved.

What about the nation of Israel? Jesus is the Jewish Messiah to Israel.

Matthew 10:5-7 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Later the nation of Israel rejected the Lord Jesus Christ; crucifying THEIR Messiah. For example...

Matthew 23:37-39  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Did God manifest in the flesh force his chosen nation and people to reject him? Jesus said "..ye would not!" No flesh will glory in his presence or will be able to say they had no opportunity to be saved. - The point is God would not present the Messiah to his people without a legitimate chance to accept him, only to have salvation go to "heathen" Gentiles.

I can elaborate more but I hope my point is clear thus far... I'd be interested to know if anyones ever heard anything like this. Thanks.

[heartstrings]

Yes, it certainly does.

[Invicta]

Eph, 1:3 ¶  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 

[DaveW]

27 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Eph, 1:3 ¶  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
 

Mind explaining why you think that is relevant?

[Invicta]

20 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Mind explaining why you think that is relevant?

I should have thought it obvious;

 

Of Israel

Deut,14:2  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
 

Of the Church

1Peter 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

[InSeasonOut]

3 hours ago, Invicta said:

I should have thought it obvious;

Invicta, so you are a Calvinist right? But you weren't alluding to replacement theology with your reference to Israel and the church were you? That wasn't so obvious.... its polite to not accuse someone of that right away :)

[Bob from England]

Reply to InSeasonOut:

Interestingly enough, Calvinists often use the fact that God chose Abraham to promote the view that God does choose people.

Moreover, I'm intrigued by your statement that the Lord "showed me this".  How do you know the Lord showed it to you?  How do you know that it wasn't simply sonething that came to you as a personal thought, as you considered the whole subject of Reformed Theology? 

I'm not promoting any particular viewpoint on the vexed issue of Calvinism, but simply urging you to be careful before invoking God's name for what may well be just an honest opinion.

[InSeasonOut]

7 hours ago, The real Bob Hutton said:

Moreover, I'm intrigued by your statement that the Lord "showed me this".  How do you know the Lord showed it to you?

I just have faith. I don't take credit for any of my knowledge of God's word. I didn't "intellectually" figure anything out on my own. I believe in the pre-trib rapture because God showed it to me, I believe in eternal security because God showed it to me etc etc.. If anyone disagrees, they have a right to their doctrinal convictions and that's between them and the Lord. I just have faith that's what I believe is true because I don't know anything apart from my personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Ukulelemike]

Well, certainly God CHOSE Israel, in fact, He created Israel, taking a Gentile, Abraham, and declaring him to be the beginning of His own people, which later becamse known as Israel, and even later, Jews, They are only different from gentiles because the Lord declard them to be different by His choosing.

However, as we look at that nation, we see clearly that they rejected Him time and again-though it was His spoken will that none perish of Israel, yet time and again, they chose to perish by worshiping false idols and rejecting His graciousness and mercy towards them. The father, their God, sent His Son, Jesus, their Messiah, to them, to begin through them to reconcile to world to Himself, yet as a nation, they rejected Christ, and the gospel went forth from there to all the Gentile nations. So, clearly, God chose them, clearly they rejected Him, many times, and ultimately, while a few will be saved, a remnant, yet it will come when they see Him return and finally understand who He is.

So Jesus died for the sin of the entire world, and in fact is the Saviour of all men, but specially of them who believe (1Tim 4:10). He died for all, specially of the elect, but it doesn't change the fact that His sacrifice is efficacious for ALL sin of ALL men of ALL time. He chose us through His foreknowledge (For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren). He knew from the start who would follow, and them He predestinated. As a country, we only elect those who seek to be elected-so God's election does not work outside our will-He knows who will seek to be of the elect, and them He elects.

[No Nicolaitans]

My personal belief is that regardless of how a truth is revealed to us or realized by us...it ultimately comes from the Lord.

(John 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

(John 14:26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

[InSeasonOut]

1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

He chose us through His foreknowledge (For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren). He knew from the start who would follow, and them He predestinated

Well, i must first note that foreknowledge precedes predestination. Meaning God does know who will accept/reject him BEFORE he "predestinates" anyone.

[Ukulelemike]

3 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

Well, i must first note that foreknowledge precedes predestination. Meaning God does know who will accept/reject him BEFORE he "predestinates" anyone.

My point exactly. I hope I made that clear-I will have to re-read my post. It appears so.

[DaveW]

22 hours ago, Invicta said:

I should have thought it obvious;

 

Of Israel

Deut,14:2  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
 

Of the Church

1Peter 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

You are often not "clear" and often complain that you are misunderstood - so how about you make it clear and state PRECISELY what you mean by quoting that verse?

And while you are at it, how about you explain PRECISELY what you are referring to with the two new verses, rather than letting us speculate and then complaining that you are wrongly accused?

 

I know what the verses say - what you use them for is anybodies guess, going on your past use of scripture.

[Alan]

Brethren,

InSeasonOut is doctrinally correct in his interpretation of the posts.

Even though Invicta did not fully explain the relevancy of his quoting of Deuteronomy 14:2 and 1 Peter 2:9, InseasonOut was correct in that Invicta was pushing the doctrine of Replacement Thology when he wrote: Of Israel in relationsthip to Deuteronomy 14:2 and Of the Church in relationship with 1 Peter 2:9

Just now, Invicta said:

I should have thought it obvious;

 

Of Israel

Deut,14:2  For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
 

Of the Church

1Peter 2:9  But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

 

Just now, InSeasonOut said:

Invicta, so you are a Calvinist right? But you weren't alluding to replacement theology with your reference to Israel and the church were you? That wasn't so obvious.... its polite to not accuse someone of that right away :)

 InSeasonOur is entirely correct. Invicta is alluding to replacement theology.

Very briefly, The preterist believes that the promises to the Jews, as in Deuteronomy 14:2 were annulled; and the the church now holds the promises once given to the nation of Israel. Here is the link to Lesson # 18, page # 8,  in the Revelation thread where I referenced this matter.

Alan

Edited May 23, 2017 by Alan
spelling

[Invicta]

1 minute ago, Alan said:

Brethren,

InSeasonOut is doctrinally correct in his interpretation of the posts.

Even though Invicta did not fully explain the relevanvy of his quoting of Deuteronomy 14:2 and 1 Peter 2:9, InseasonOut was correct in that Invicta was pushing the doctrine of Replacement Thology when he wrote: Of Israel in relationsthip to Deuteronomy 14:2 and Of the Church in relationship with 1 Peter 2:9

 

 InSeasonOur is entirely correct. Invicta is alluding to replacement theology.

Very briefly, The preterist believes that the promises to the Jews, as in Deuteronomy 14:2 were annulled; and the the church now holds the promises once given to the nation of Israel. Here is the link to Lesson # 18, page # 8,  in the Revelation thread where I referenced this matter.

Alan

No I was not supporting replacement theology.  I was just showing that as G|od chose Israel, he also chose his church.