Antichrist will come from

[Invicta]

On 3/16/2019 at 7:13 PM, Salyan said:

 Geneva and preacher hasn’t been around in a while… He’s probably not going to respond. 

 That may have been where the term originated, but by Christ’s day, it was commonly understood to refer to all the tribes of Israel.

I think he was banned.  

[robycop3]

On 3/16/2019 at 3:13 PM, Salyan said:

 Geneva and preacher hasn’t been around in a while… He’s probably not going to respond. 

 That may have been where the term originated, but by Christ’s day, it was commonly understood to refer to all the tribes of Israel.

  Are you speaking of the term "Jew"?

   I understand "Jew" to be a handle for "Judean" or "citizen of Judah". The term "Jews" was first used in the KJV  in 2 Kings 16:6. We see from Scripture that the Jews were the people of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi, after Jeroboam removed the Levites from priesthood in the kingdom of Israel after God had broken Judah off from it. And I believe that when Scripture says "Jew", it's referring to only those 3 tribes, while "Israel" or "Jacob" refers to all 12 tribes.

 

  I know Scripture never says "a Jew from the tribe of Dan" or similar.

Edited March 18, 2019 by robycop3

[Salyan]

I agree that that's how the term originated. However, by the New Testament times, and perhaps before, it was used both for traditional Judea, and for all Israel as a whole (particularly by outsiders).

Example of the word 'Jew' used to refer to non-Judaic tribes:
John 6:41,52 (Capernaum, Galilee)

Examples of the word 'Jew' used to refer to corporate Israel:
Matthew 2:2-6 (the wise men referred to the one that 'should rule Israel' as 'the King of the Jews')
John 2:13; 5:1 (The Passover & feasts were not given only to Judah/Benjamin/Levi, but to all Israel)
Romans 3:9, 29, 9:24; 1 Cor. 1:22-24; 10:32, 12:13 (Jews as opposed to Gentiles, which are commonly understood to be non-Israelitish peoples).
Galatians 1:13-14 (Reference to the Jews religion - while centered in Jerusalem, it was never only a Judean religion)
Basically any reference to synagogues or Jews in Asia or Europe.  I think it's a stretch to assume that the only reference we have to those following Judaism or identified as Jews in these parts of the world were only from 3 tribes. 

Frankly, long before the New Testament times, I suspect that all the references in Esther to 'Jews' referred to them corporately. We know that many tribes were removed to Persia; are we to assume that the national identity was sustained in exile to such a great extent that they were not all affected by these events? All modern Jews - most of whom have no idea which tribe they are descended from - celebrate Purim just as all Jews were told to do in Esther 9.
 

9 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  I know Scripture never says "a Jew from the tribe of Dan" or similar.

That's arguing from silence. 

[Invicta]

The tribe of Asher was mentioned as present in the time of Jesus so why not others?  Cyrus ruled over the lands where Israel was exiled and he gave permissionto all who wanted. to return,  not all of any tribe did.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Invicta

[2bLikeJesus]

My only problem with speculating that the anti-Christ will come out of Rome or be a Gentile in any way is that the Jews will accept him as their Messiah.  I can't see any Jewish nation accepting a Gentile as Messiah.  I believe the anti-Christ must be a Jew.

[Eric Stahl]

4 hours ago, 2bLikeJesus said:

My only problem with speculating that the anti-Christ will come out of Rome or be a Gentile in any way is that the Jews will accept him as their Messiah.  I can't see any Jewish nation accepting a Gentile as Messiah.  I believe the anti-Christ must be a Jew.

North America and South America are of Roman linage, so is the 11th horn or Anti Christ.

[robycop3]

10 hours ago, 2bLikeJesus said:

My only problem with speculating that the anti-Christ will come out of Rome or be a Gentile in any way is that the Jews will accept him as their Messiah.  I can't see any Jewish nation accepting a Gentile as Messiah.  I believe the anti-Christ must be a Jew.

  I'm going by what Gabriel told to Daniel about "a prince of the people who will destroy Jerusalem", which could only have been the Romans, as Jerusalem lay in ruins at that time. I don't believe the Jews will accept the "beast" as Messiah, but the "beast from the earth", the false prophet, might well be a Jew.

13 hours ago, Salyan said:

I agree that that's how the term originated. However, by the New Testament times, and perhaps before, it was used both for traditional Judea, and for all Israel as a whole (particularly by outsiders).

Example of the word 'Jew' used to refer to non-Judaic tribes:
John 6:41,52 (Capernaum, Galilee)

Examples of the word 'Jew' used to refer to corporate Israel:
Matthew 2:2-6 (the wise men referred to the one that 'should rule Israel' as 'the King of the Jews')
John 2:13; 5:1 (The Passover & feasts were not given only to Judah/Benjamin/Levi, but to all Israel)
Romans 3:9, 29, 9:24; 1 Cor. 1:22-24; 10:32, 12:13 (Jews as opposed to Gentiles, which are commonly understood to be non-Israelitish peoples).
Galatians 1:13-14 (Reference to the Jews religion - while centered in Jerusalem, it was never only a Judean religion)
Basically any reference to synagogues or Jews in Asia or Europe.  I think it's a stretch to assume that the only reference we have to those following Judaism or identified as Jews in these parts of the world were only from 3 tribes. 

Frankly, long before the New Testament times, I suspect that all the references in Esther to 'Jews' referred to them corporately. We know that many tribes were removed to Persia; are we to assume that the national identity was sustained in exile to such a great extent that they were not all affected by these events? All modern Jews - most of whom have no idea which tribe they are descended from - celebrate Purim just as all Jews were told to do in Esther 9.
 

That's arguing from silence. 

 Sometimes, silence is a good argument. But I believe there are many more Iaraelis who don't know their true national identity. And God said He's gonna re-join Judah & the rest of Israel into one nation again It's just something to watch for as time goes by, which could provide us with more tools to convince skeptics of the truth of God's word, and that He is real, alive, & in charge.

Edited March 19, 2019 by robycop3

[Eric Stahl]

The lie happens after the rapture. My guess is that the lie is that the rapture is an alien abduction.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Eric Stahl

[John Young]

If the lord tarries and the way people are blaming Christians for not being more "accepting" then, I would be leaning more towards "concentration camps" or "re-education centers"....I believe the "beginning of sorrows" (or birth pains as some call them) is our present time that is leading up to Israel's tribulation. God can take us out at any time but the closer He tarries the more of the symptoms we will experience that lead up to their re-birth.

Matthew 24:6-14 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Edited March 20, 2019 by John Young

[robycop3]

2 hours ago, John Young said:

If the lord tarries and the way people are blaming Christians for not being more "accepting" then, I would be leaning more towards "concentration camps" or "re-education centers"....I believe the "beginning of sorrows" (or birth pains as some call them) is our present time that is leading up to Israel's tribulation. God can take us out at any time but the closer He tarries the more of the symptoms we will experience that lead up to their re-birth.

Matthew 24:6-14 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

  Remember, Jesus said the generation that sees some of these things will see them all. And how do birth pains progress? They generally start out mildly, then become progressively more intense & closer together. I believe that's how the great trib will be.

[Eric Stahl]

5 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  Remember, Jesus said the generation that sees some of these things will see them all. And how do birth pains progress? They generally start out mildly, then become progressively more intense & closer together. I believe that's how the great trib will be.

I think famines are next.

 

[robycop3]

10 hours ago, Eric Stahl said:

I think famines are next.

 

 May be. But I don't believe the series of events will really get rolling til the "beast" comes to power, & the Jews build a new temple in Jerusalem. I don't know which of those will come first, nor how near or far from now they may be. But we DO know the Jews have all the building materials ready, that they recently consecrated an altar to be placed in that temple when built, & that they're breeding animals such as red heifers to be used in temple rites. It COULD be that the beast will broker a deal that'll allow the jews to build that temple without starting a war. I certainly don't know for sure!

[Invicta]

On 3/21/2019 at 6:46 AM, robycop3 said:

 May be. But I don't believe the series of events will really get rolling til the "beast" comes to power, & the Jews build a new temple in Jerusalem. I don't know which of those will come first, nor how near or far from now they may be. But we DO know the Jews have all the building materials ready, that they recently consecrated an altar to be placed in that temple when built, & that they're breeding animals such as red heifers to be used in temple rites. It COULD be that the beast will broker a deal that'll allow the jews to build that temple without starting a war. I certainly don't know for sure!

After the six day war, we we told in our church that the Jews had all the materials teady for a temple and would soon be completed.  That was false and I have no doubt current speculations are also false.

[Eric Stahl]

On 3/21/2019 at 2:46 AM, robycop3 said:

 May be. But I don't believe the series of events will really get rolling til the "beast" comes to power, & the Jews build a new temple in Jerusalem. I don't know which of those will come first, nor how near or far from now they may be. But we DO know the Jews have all the building materials ready, that they recently consecrated an altar to be placed in that temple when built, & that they're breeding animals such as red heifers to be used in temple rites. It COULD be that the beast will broker a deal that'll allow the jews to build that temple without starting a war. I certainly don't know for sure!

Matthew 24:7-8

 

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

(The famines will increase in occurrences and severity untill the day of the Lord . )

 

(I believe the temple will be built beside the Dome of the Rock.)

Revelation
Chapter 11

 

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Eric Stahl

[Eric Stahl]

2 hours ago, Invicta said:

After the six day war, we we told in our church that the Jews had all the materials teady for a temple and would soon be completed.  That was false and I have no doubt current speculations are also false.

A Jewish soldier heard a voice from heaven say build the temple now at the waling wall when they took Jerusalem in 1967.