Great White Throne/Judgement Seat of Christ questions

[Genevanpreacher]

Alan said -

"I do appreciate your reading the thread carefully and am also glad that it appears we agree that Revelation chapter 4 is when the Judgement Seat of Christ occurs.

Alan"

 

And -

 

"I will respond, but very quickly.

I never said that Revelation chapter 4 and 5 is the Judgment Seat. Read my post carefully. Furthermore, I stated, twice, that the empahsis is on the throne of God and the Lord Jesus as the Lamb. Read my  post carefully. The saints are throwing their crowns before the Lord Jesus is what the scriptures are emphasizing concerning the church. These crowns were earned rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ." 

 

What does Alan mean here?

How can there be no mention of 'the Judgement' nor of the 'Judgement Seat of Christ' in chapter 4 of Revelation and he says it is in chapter 4? Or does he?

Edited November 7, 2016 by Genevanpreacher

[Alan]

I clarified myself in the Larkin thread.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Alan
Larkin for Revelation

[Genevanpreacher]

7 hours ago, Alan said:

I clarified myself in the Larkin thread.

No you didn't.

Here is what you said -

"Revelation 22:12, "Behold I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to giver every man according as his work shall be."

1 Thessalonians 4:11-18 tells us when the Lord comes in the clouds in the air the dead saints will rise and meet them in the air.

The Lord Jesus is bringing the rewards, "the Judgment Seat of Christ," with Him when He comes in the air. We, the church, with our rewards, are, as John the Apostle was in Revelation 4:1, in the presence of the throne of God.

I do hope this clarifys the two posts."

You quoted some other verses from other chapters and books.

What you have done is muddy some already dark waters and showed zero spots in chapter 4 of Revelation that state anything about a judgement or rapture or anything from that chapter.

IF what you state were true - quote from Revelation chapter 4 please - and prove your view.

I know there is a judgement Alan, that is not the question - in Revelation 4 there is none - Judgement Seat of Christ nor Great White Throne Judgement.

You need to have some words here to show what you mean - everyone should be able to see them if what you said were true.

[DaveW]

Exactly like you didn't in the "Lucifer" discussion.

Why is it ok for YOU to use other passages in that instance, but not ok for him to use other passages in this?

Any reasonable bible student KNOWS that no single passage is enough to build a doctrine, but cross referencing must be used - AS YOU have done elsewhere.

This simply smacks of you trying to cause trouble over this - if you genuinely wanted information and explanation you would not put unreasonable restrictions on Alan which YOU YOURSELF do not sick to in other discussion.

 

And by the way, it takes very little effort to at least make reference to "the Larkin thread" rather than making blind quotes which appear designed to slander by their lack of reference - people have to search to find any sort of context for your accusation, and without context for the remarks who knows whether they are reasonable or not.

You quote passages which SEEM to say that Alan has lied, but the context - which you not only excluded but made it difficult to find by your total lack of reference - the context shows the subject to be more complex than a simple "I never said that" "Yes you did."

 

 

[Genevanpreacher]

1 hour ago, DaveW said:

Exactly like you didn't in the "Lucifer" discussion. Because Dave I was not 'proving' it was the Devil in that discussion.

Why is it ok for YOU to use other passages in that instance, but not ok for him to use other passages in this? same as above.

Any reasonable bible student KNOWS that no single passage is enough to build a doctrine, but cross referencing must be used - AS YOU have done elsewhere. Yes - except he specifically said that this chapter WAS the Judgement Seat of Christ.

This simply smacks of you trying to cause trouble over this - if you genuinely wanted information and explanation you would not put unreasonable restrictions on Alan which YOU YOURSELF do not sick to in other discussion. Yes Dave - I know - all I am here for is to cause trouble. Sorry. Questioning why someone would say Lucifer is the Devil when the scriptures don't say he was, was rough on your psyche. And proving the Judgement Seat of Christ is in Revelation chapter 4 obviously maybe too. My apologies for wanting truth explained from sources referred to.

 

And by the way, it takes very little effort to at least make reference to "the Larkin thread" rather than making blind quotes which appear designed to slander by their lack of reference - people have to search to find any sort of context for your accusation, and without context for the remarks who knows whether they are reasonable or not. once again - Yes Dave, I could have. Just didn't think of it. There - you DID. You saved me!

You quote passages which SEEM to say that Alan has lied, but the context - which you not only excluded but made it difficult to find by your total lack of reference - the context shows the subject to be more complex than a simple "I never said that" "Yes you did." Well - is what I said out of context? No. Since I can't figure out how to copy from another thread to this one, without just copy and pasting - could someone reference or link his quotes? I am at a loss on how. Thanks for any help.

Here is what was said in it's entirety -

"Brother JohnBaptistHenry,

Good posting. This thread  was unlocked per my request in order to re-upload the Larkin charts that were not appearing properly. I am not sure that the moderators intend to keep this thread open past Sunday evening until I can upload the final chart ( I am currently in a different city than my English library and cannot obtain the final chart until late Sunday evening).

So, at this point, I think it is best to hold any further discussion on Larkin, Revelation 4:4 and who the 24 elders represent, in abeyance until the moderators either re-lock the thread or keep it open.

Either way, since the question of who the 24 elders are in Revelation 4:4 is a question in itself, if you would like to open up a study in your own thread concerning it than that may be a viable solution at this moment.

I do appreciate your reading the thread carefully and am also glad that it appears we agree that Revelation chapter 4 is when the Judgement Seat of Christ occurs.

Alan"

 

And -

"I will respond, but very quickly.

I never said that Revelation chapter 4 and 5 is the Judgment Seat. Read my post carefully. Furthermore, I stated, twice, that the empahsis is on the throne of God and the Lord Jesus as the Lamb. Read my  post carefully. The saints are throwing their crowns before the Lord Jesus is what the scriptures are emphasizing concerning the church. These crowns were earned rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ."  

Edited November 8, 2016 by Genevanpreacher

[DaveW]

Why am I not surprised...................

[Alan]

6 hours ago, DaveW said:

Exactly like you didn't in the "Lucifer" discussion.

Why is it ok for YOU to use other passages in that instance, but not ok for him to use other passages in this?

Any reasonable bible student KNOWS that no single passage is enough to build a doctrine, but cross referencing must be used - AS YOU have done elsewhere.

This simply smacks of you trying to cause trouble over this - if you genuinely wanted information and explanation you would not put unreasonable restrictions on Alan which YOU YOURSELF do not sick to in other discussion.

 

And by the way, it takes very little effort to at least make reference to "the Larkin thread" rather than making blind quotes which appear designed to slander by their lack of reference - people have to search to find any sort of context for your accusation, and without context for the remarks who knows whether they are reasonable or not.

You quote passages which SEEM to say that Alan has lied, but the context - which you not only excluded but made it difficult to find by your total lack of reference - the context shows the subject to be more complex than a simple "I never said that" "Yes you did."

 

 

Bro. Dave is entiely correct.

I tried to correct myself and Genevanpreacher is still trying to slander me. In this instance, he has no compassion. Genevanpreacher is trying to make an honest mistake, (that has been clarified and rectified), in order to try and destroy biblical doctrines. A resaonable person would take my clarification and rectification, even if they did not agree with the conclusion, and accept it.

In my estimation, Genevanpreacher is here to cause trouble between honest brethren and make this honest mistake, that was clarified and rectified, to cause me to lose heart and leave OnLine Baptist or to destroy my effectiveness.

Alan

 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Alan
added, in this instance

[Genevanpreacher]

7 hours ago, Alan said:

Bro. Dave is entiely correct.

I tried to correct myself and Genevanpreacher is still trying to slander me. In this instance, he has no compassion. Genevanpreacher is trying to make an honest mistake, (that has been clarified and rectified), in order to try and destroy biblical doctrines. A resaonable person would take my clarification and rectification, even if they did not agree with the conclusion, and accept it.

In my estimation, Genevanpreacher is here to cause trouble between honest brethren and make this honest mistake, that was clarified and rectified, to cause me to lose heart and leave OnLine Baptist or to destroy my effectiveness.

Alan

 

WHAT?? 

Excuse me - at what point was an "honest mistake" even mentioned?

Sorry - I am at a total loss.

If anyone leaves Alan, I am sure I will be sacrificed to keep you if it came down to it.

Please just answer the questions and fulfill our minds with ease - and know that nobody wants you to leave. (Especially me! Without you and DaveW my sword would become dull.)

These are good questions that you as a knowledgeable man of God ought to be able to answer without complaining about slander. Yes, I noticed the subject change.

Let me check the other thread and see what I have evidentally missed.

[Genevanpreacher]

I found no explanation on the other thread about any mistake or correction.

Any thing you guys can help me with?

Edited November 8, 2016 by Genevanpreacher

[No Nicolaitans]

12 hours ago, Alan said:

to cause me to lose heart and leave OnLine Baptist or to destroy my effectiveness.

 

Alan...Brother Alan...my dear friend...I beseech you not to leave or lose heart. I hold no ill-will toward GP. In fact, I've realized areas; in which, I've treated him unfairly and with what I perceived as an un-Christlike attitutde. I apologized to him and was sincere in doing so. While there are differences of opinion here on Online Baptist (and everywhere for that matter), one thing stands out...though I don't often acknowledge it...you're a tremendous blessing to me.

Keep pressing toward the mark! (Ephesian 3:14)

[Genevanpreacher]

Meanwhile, since all attention has been diverted to the wrong subject here, I will ask a different question.

Why, since some think Revelation chapter 4 is the Judgement Seat/Rapture of the church, do people assume this same chapter is 'showing a future event' when the book, that John will be shown the future from, has not been opened yet?

This is a major 'unspoken' event for 'Rev4 rapturists' to explain.

Reading Revelation correctly helps - and not just teaching a supposed doctrine of the rapture, because John himself was taken up to the throne - to see future events from a book with seven seals opened. Not a 'picture' of the church being raptured at all. Pictures didn't get shown til the book was unsealed. 

It was actually John who was taken up. Period.

Any comments?

Edited November 9, 2016 by Genevanpreacher

[MountainChristian]

Revelation 4:1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Hereafter. After what? After the seven Gentile Churches

These Churches have been gone for a long time yet the "things" didn't come to pass. So the idea of seven churches became seven church ages. That the mostly Gentile church will be moved to Heaven like John, then the focus will be on a mostly Jewish Church. Yes, the word church doesn't not appear after the third chapter. BUT, they have the testimony of Jesus and only saved people have that.

Come up hither, They say that will be the call to the dead and living when Jesus comes in the clouds for the great change. 

I looked, and, behold, a door opened in heaven Jesus being the door to Heaven

~~~~~~

When we die we are already judged. Saved go to Heaven, the lost go to Hell.

At the Great White Throne no one goes from Hell into Heaven, they only go into the Lake of Fire. Why? The old Earth is destroyed. The New Earth has no Hell under it.  

 

[Genevanpreacher]

Regardless of which perception you believe, 70 AD, or futurist, the same thing is said here.

Hereafter.

No real need for church ages. That makes no sense either. 

They are examples to our churches down through the centuries - but not church ages - that's another fallacy of teaching.

But back to the question of chapter 4 - this chapter is considered a pinnacle point in Revelation - which needs to be cleared up.

Properly.

1  After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

 

Pretty self explanatory.

 

3  And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

 

A description of God.

 

4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

 

Another description of some 'elders'. Regardless of 'who' they represent, or if they do represent some people.

 

5  And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

 

Another description.

 

6  And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

 

Another description.

 

7  And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

8  And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they werefull of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

 

Another description.

 

 

9  And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,

10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

 

And a praise.

 

Nowhere is there any evidence that any of this is future being shown to John. 

It is just 'when' John was there, and 'what' occurred when he first got there.

No judgement.

No rapture of the church.

Not anything of magnitude about much - except the power and majesty of God where he lives.  

Edited November 11, 2016 by Genevanpreacher
Mispelling.

[Genevanpreacher]

Another question - if as Alan says, that the Lord Jesus is bringing the throne with him when he comes to rapture us - what about this section of verses about the gathering of the saints -

1 Corinthians 15 -

51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57  But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Now does anyone see a throne? No.

Does anyone see a reward?  I do.

Notice verse 53?

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

There is our reward.

It continues in verse 54 -

"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Death dies - our reward is immortality and incorruptibility.

Eternal life in a new body is the reward that the Lord Jesus is bringing with him when he says -

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

[HappyChristian]

I didn't see this thread until just now. I'm going to lock this thread because it seems to simply be a thread to start an argument. This entire thing could be done via PM if there were real interest in resolving rather than attacking.