Israel attacks U.S.

[Jordan Kurecki]

Hypothetical situation.

Israel attacks the U.S. And you are commander in chief. Do you respond by attacking Israel in defense of the U.S.? Will God curse you for attacking them in this situation? 

[Heir of Salvation]

Yes, you defend yourself.

No, God would not punish you for responding.

[wretched]

6 hours ago, Heir of Salvation said:

Yes, you defend yourself.

No, God would not punish you for responding.

Please explain this answer (Scripturally of course)

[heartstrings]

No, because you wouldn't be "cursing" God's people or showing preemptive aggression.

This verse is speaking to bloodwashed, born again Christians and it applies:  Romans 13:4"................if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."  In other words, if you rob my store, break into my house, murder someone and run afoul of the Government, or attack another country, whatever happens next is your fault.

But I don't believe Israel would do that.

Edited August 30, 2016 by heartstrings

[wretched]

6 hours ago, heartstrings said:

No, because you wouldn't be "cursing" God's people or showing preemptive aggression.

This verse is speaking to bloodwashed, born again Christians and it applies:  Romans 13:4"................if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil."  In other words, if you rob my store, break into my house, murder someone and run afoul of the Government, or attack another country, whatever happens next is your fault.

But I don't believe Israel would do that.

Question: Why would attacking a muslim-lead america be evil?? Because that is what we are now and will continue to be muslim-lead through indirect sympathy if Trump isn't elected. If hilarious makes it, we will see scores more muslim cabinet member and political appointees at all levels of government. So make sure you all vote. I think America is no better than the Amorites, Hittites or any other OT "ites" at this point in History. Thanks primarily to the muslim obamanation in office for the last 8 years. These last 8 years have taken 100s of years off our "mercy" meter with the Lord IMO.

In addition do you really think Romans 13:4 applies to nations? I can see how Jordan's passage does. I think the Romans passage is applicable to individuals more so, a reap what you sow type of warning. In addition a warning that even though a real NT Christian, we are not above man's laws.  We are to be subject to God instituted human government until it steps on the Bible, worship and witnessing (but nothing else really unless related or tied directly to those three areas). Don't get me wrong I do understand what you are saying brother. I just wouldn't apply it to nations initially.

Edited August 31, 2016 by wretched

[heartstrings]

I agree, it was addressed to Christians breaking laws, but I would think it could also apply to all evil deeds, like Hitler invading Poland and murdering Jews in concentration camps, the Japanese attacking pearl harbor, or Saddam Hussein gassing the Kurds. God used man/governments to judge them all as you well know. But, I don't believe Israel has the right or propensity to attack our "muslim led country" unless we violate/attack them first. Hopefully we'll not vote Hitlery into office either.

 

[wretched]

8 hours ago, heartstrings said:

I agree, it was addressed to Christians breaking laws, but I would think it could also apply to all evil deeds, like Hitler invading Poland and murdering Jews in concentration camps, the Japanese attacking pearl harbor, or Saddam Hussein gassing the Kurds. God used man/governments to judge them all as you well know. But, I don't believe Israel has the right or propensity to attack our "muslim led country" unless we violate/attack them first. Hopefully we'll not vote Hitlery into office either.

 

Understood and good points

[Heir of Salvation]

On 8/30/2016 at 10:48 AM, wretched said:

Please explain this answer (Scripturally of course)

I'm not trying to be snarky....but, there's absolutely nothing to "explain".

If someone attacks your home, your land, your wife, your livelihood....you respond with deadly force.

You expose them to a WORLD of hurt, like nothing they've ever conceived of.  Swift, sure, deadly, painful...

Oprimere, Velocitas, Violentia Operandi.

There's no question to be answered here.  Men protect their women, their homes, their property, their livelihood.

 

That's how you end a confrontation quickly....If you end confrontations quickly...you save lives.

The use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagosaki saved lives in the millions or projectedly...at least hundreds of thousands.  It was the most humanitarian thing ever done.  When at war....you END the war.  It's done by overwhelming infliction of pain.  Have the fortitude to do it....and lives are saved.

 

 

 

 

[wretched]

9 minutes ago, Heir of Salvation said:

I'm not trying to be snarky....but, there's absolutely nothing to "explain".

If someone attacks your home, your land, your wife, your livelihood....you respond with deadly force.

You expose them to a WORLD of hurt, like nothing they've ever conceived of.  Swift, sure, deadly, painful...

Oprimere, Velocitas, Violentia Operandi.

There's no question to be answered here.  Men protect their women, their homes, their property, their livelihood.

 

That's how you end a confrontation quickly....If you end confrontations quickly...you save lives.

The use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagosaki saved lives in the millions or projectedly...at least hundreds of thousands.  It was the most humanitarian thing ever done.  When at war....you END the war.  It's done by overwhelming infliction of pain.  Have the fortitude to do it....and lives are saved.

 

 

 

 

Well thanks friend, but this answer is apples to oranges and has little to do with the question.

Provide some Scripture that refutes Israel's blessing from God as a nation throughout the ages and the Lord's guarantee of cursing to all nations who curse Israel. I know the OP question is hypothetical but the last 8 years indicates a dangerous trend for the U.S.

Matter of fact, after the last 8 years, it is useless to even imagine the U.S. not being destroyed utterly by the Lord at His Second Coming. This country is increasingly anti-Israel which will culminate in this IMO.

 

 

 

[Heir of Salvation]

2 hours ago, wretched said:

This country is increasingly anti-Israel

 

 

 

NO.........It isn't.

This is absolutely not an anti-Israel Nation.

You don't know where to look.........Israel as a Nation, and as a People, have still rejected their Messiah, they will continue to do so until the Tribulation.

Only in the time of Jacob's trouble will the remnant of Israel understand and embrace their Messiah.

Rom 9:6

¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The Gentiles do NOT reject the Messiah....

We are the "Wild Olive branch" that has been grafted into the promises..

 

That's only Australia.....

The Western World is simply so extremely pro-gospel, you aren't looking in the right places.

Our LEADERS are often evil...........but that's not who we are.

 

Israel is a secular and Godless Nation.

 

The penultimate expression of righteousness is still expressed in Western Gentile Christianity.....don't be fooled by heretics like Obama into thinking otherwise.  God knows where HIS people are.......and he knows which Nations still honor him.

That's the Risen Messiah being honored thousands of miles away.

In the event you don't internalize this...........this is the Royal Albert Hall in London.

It's the Premier cultural venue for musicals, concerts and culture....It defines them culturally.

 

And so the good Ol' U...S...of A, isn't ignored...

Let's see Israel do this:

 

Edited September 3, 2016 by Heir of Salvation

[Alan]

Heir of Salvation,

Thank you very much for the for the songs and testimony. There are still some quite a bit of fine saints in the old US of A that love the lord, love Israel, and pray for the day that Romans 9:6 will be fulfilled. I have not commented much on this thread as I feel the assumption of Israel attacking America is not plausible.  And, I personally do not care for hypothetical situations as this one.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee." Psalm 122:6

We need to pray for, and love, America and the nation of Israel. In spite of our rulers, there is still a lot of "salt" here in America that is keeping our country as a witness for the cause of Jesus Christ around the world. Let us remind ourselves that is was our government, President Harry S. Truman, that recognized Israel as a nation in May 1948, and our country that has helped Israel since that day.

Again, Heir of Salvation, thank you for the fine songs. All three are a blessing to my heart.

Alan

 

Edited September 3, 2016 by Alan
grammer

[wretched]

3 hours ago, Heir of Salvation said:

NO.........It isn't.

This is absolutely not an anti-Israel Nation.

You don't know where to look.........Israel as a Nation, and as a People, have still rejected their Messiah, they will continue to do so until the Tribulation.

Only in the time of Jacob's trouble will the remnant of Israel understand and embrace their Messiah.

Rom 9:6

¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The Gentiles do NOT reject the Messiah....

We are the "Wild Olive branch" that has been grafted into the promises..

 

That's only Australia.....

The Western World is simply so extremely pro-gospel, you aren't looking in the right places.

Our LEADERS are often evil...........but that's not who we are.

 

Israel is a secular and Godless Nation.

 

The penultimate expression of righteousness is still expressed in Western Gentile Christianity.....don't be fooled by heretics like Obama into thinking otherwise.  God knows where HIS people are.......and he knows which Nations still honor him.

That's the Risen Messiah being honored thousands of miles away.

In the event you don't internalize this...........this is the Royal Albert Hall in London.

It's the Premier cultural venue for musicals, concerts and culture....It defines them culturally.

 

And so the good Ol' U...S...of A, isn't ignored...

Let's see Israel do this:

 

Although you post does smack hard of replacement theology through its hostility towards Israel, it still does not address the question. So I can assume as I already did anyway that you have no Scriptural basis for any part of your argument.

is what you are saying patriotic...sure; conservative republican....yes; neo-nazi...close;  but Scriptural...No.

The vast majority of patriotic, conservative republicans are lost religious. I wouldn't hazard to say as much as 95% of them. So don't confuse them with God's real children truly born again that the Lord does hear and will honor their sacrifices and service.

 

[Heir of Salvation]

4 hours ago, wretched said:

Although you post does smack hard of replacement theology through its hostility towards Israel, it still does not address the question. So I can assume as I already did anyway that you have no Scriptural basis for any part of your argument.

is what you are saying patriotic...sure; conservative republican....yes; neo-nazi...close;  but Scriptural...No.

The vast majority of patriotic, conservative republicans are lost religious. I wouldn't hazard to say as much as 95% of them. So don't confuse them with God's real children truly born again that the Lord does hear and will honor their sacrifices and service.

 

I am not even close to an adherent of Replacement Theology................I abhor Replacement Theology.

"Neo-Nazi"?????  Really??  Can you quote for me the "Neo-Nazi" part of the post?

There's no Scriptural argument to even make!.....the question was if your nation was attacked without warrant should you defend it?

The answer is obvious.....of course you defend your country.

Do I take it that if an Israeli bomber were dropping ordnance on your house you wouldn't fire back?

You wouldn't defend your wife and children?  You would let an Israeli murder your family?

This thread is beyond the pale of absurd.

Jordan shouldn't even have to ask the question, the answer is self-evident.  He's just over-thinking it.  It's understandable, he's a curious learning young man trying to make sense of complex ideas, sometimes young people over-think things and confuse the complex with the simple.  That's all.   

I have zilch hostility towards Israel.....Zilch.

I know that the Nation of Israel however, does not have Carte-Blanche to attack other countries without recourse.  I also know that they wouldn't.  They are a friend and ally of the United States.  And I support them 100%.  But the Nation of Israel is not the synonymous with the Jewish people as a whole.  There are Jews throughout the world.

And, yes, the Nation of Israel as a whole is extremely secular and as a people group they have rejected their Messiah.  I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it's a fact.  Paul also says that the Natural Olive branch (the Jews) will be grafted back in again.  Unfortunately, that won't happen until after the time of Jacob's trouble.  I wish it weren't so, but, it is so and that's the Scriptural testimony on the matter.  Paul's argument in Romans 11 tell the story.....

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.   These are the times of the gentiles according to the Scripture, until the fullness of the gentiles has come in, the Jews remain as a whole in unbelief.  Replacement Theology doesn't understand that the natural Olive branch will be grafted BACK IN AGAIN.   There are two possible errors that are made:   The first is to fail to understand that the Jews have been put aside FOR A TIME. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off   The second is to fail to realize that the Natural branch (the Jews) will be grafted back in........that's what Replacement Theology fails to recognize, and that's why I absolutely am NOT an adherent of it and I loathe it.  Paul expressly warns against it right here:   Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.   But we can't fail to recognize the first point either that for now, these are the times of the gentiles and God is provoking them to jealousy, and it will take the Tribulation to bring them back in again.  It's because I don't fail to recognize the unfortunate reality of point 1 that you accuse me of abhorrent Replacement Theology and Nazism............ (absurd).   Make neither of the two errors.

Your accusations of "Neo-Nazi" and "Replacement Theology" are absurd, insulting and unwarranted.

 

Edited September 4, 2016 by Heir of Salvation

[Salyan]

Okay, I'm going to jump in before this goes any further. The neo-nazi remark was inflammatory and unnecessary, Wretched. Let's stop this rabbit trail of personal remarks before it goes any further.  Both of you. 

[Salyan]

The Western nations are not 'Christian' or 'righteous', Heir. We as individuals have been grafted in, but that grafting does not extend to the nation corporately. You are correct in saying that Israel as a nation has not returned to her God. She is like the dead bones of the valley, connected and standing, but without breath. America, Australia and the U.K., however, are no less secular and godless than she. Our Western nations do not enjoy some special privilege or position in God's eyes.  The idea that they do generally does generate from replacement theology. 

I agree with Heir on the OP, though. It is kind of a common-sense question. Of course you should defend your own country. If you want to cobble together a chapter and verse, try 1 Peter 2:14 and 1 Timothy 5:8.