R. C. Sproul Jr.

[John81]

We have to be careful with use of "world" since there are many times in Scripture when it refers to "world" but doesn't mean the entire planet but a localized area.

I've seen several times over the years where a person who knows these passages of Scripture will hammer the first person who brings up references to "world" saying that has to mean the whole world.

"World" has various meanings in Scripture depending upon context so we need to keep that in mind when stating our positions so we don't fall into traps some folks use (not speaking of anyone here, I'm thinking of experiences I've had and seen over the years).

[Genevanpreacher]

2Tim 4:13?

Typo?

[wretched]

More weak, lame or lazy using calvinism as their excuse to not preach the Gospel to everyone. The flesh says why bother when God will save them all regardless of what I do.

I believe the exact opposite to be truth. I believe we will be forced to watch all those whom we did not warn day and night at the Great White Throne. All those we know in our lives, we will recognize on that day: coworkers, friends and relatives. This is what the tears in Heaven will be all about.

Edited July 31, 2015 by wretched

[Jim_Alaska]

Jim, your right but you also have to take into consideration who he was talking to and what the context was of the conversation was. 

Pauls epistles are written to believers, at a certain time, at a certain place, dealing with certain situations. For those we have to take into context what was being said, to who, what, where and why.

explain this then Jim. What is the spiritual significance of. 2Tim 4:13?

Leonard, I am no youngster, I learned the four "W's" in grade school. I am also aware of the need for "context" in reading Scripture.

If we apply your thoughts concerning your "story" then one of the two verses I supplied would read like this:  

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every Hebrew man.

But they do not read this way do they? Why do you suppose that is? I suggest that perhaps it is because God The Holy Spirit wrote it in a manner that we could easily understand. In other words he meant "every man", which would include humanity as a whole, not just the Hebrews.

One of the rules of interpretation states that we are to conscientiously abide by the plain meaning of words unless there is clear indication to the contrary.

In the Scripture I gave in 1Jn.2:2,  John, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote the words, "whole world". It is not hard to understand what those two words mean.

You will have to make your question regarding 2Tim.4:13 clearer. In light of that Scripture I do not understand the question.

[Leonard Sylvia]

 

 

Yes, I've read Romans 9, many times. let me ask you a question.

Are those who are not 'elect', the enemies of God?

if they are not saved, what do you think?

Typo?

no, what is the sipiritual significance of that verse? there is a reason why I ask. i will answer when one does.

More weak, lame or lazy using calvinism as their excuse to not preach the Gospel to everyone. The flesh says why bother when God will save them all regardless of what I do.

Generalize much? Faith comes by hearing......

 

I believe the exact opposite to be truth. I believe we will be forced to watch all those whom we did not warn day and night at the Great White Throne. All those we know in our lives, we will recognize on that day: coworkers, friends and relatives. This is what the tears in Heaven will be all about.

Do you have Scriptural evidence for your "hunch"?

Leonard, I am no youngster, I learned the four "W's" in grade school. I am also aware of the need for "context" in reading Scripture.

If we apply your thoughts concerning your "story" then one of the two verses I supplied would read like this:  

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every Hebrew man.

But they do not read this way do they? Why do you suppose that is? I suggest that perhaps it is because God The Holy Spirit wrote it in a manner that we could easily understand. In other words he meant "every man", which would include humanity as a whole, not just the Hebrews.

One of the rules of interpretation states that we are to conscientiously abide by the plain meaning of words unless there is clear indication to the contrary.

In the Scripture I gave in 1Jn.2:2,  John, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote the words, "whole world". It is not hard to understand what those two words mean.

You will have to make your question regarding 2Tim.4:13 clearer. In light of that Scripture I do not understand the question.

Why did Paul write that to Timothy and how do we apply it to our lives?

and as for Hebrews, IF Paul meant all men, and wrote to the Ephesian Church hat Christ gave his life for the church,Eph 5:25, then we have a contradiction. It makes more sense that if the writer in Hebrews was talking about the world of believers.

 

Edited July 31, 2015 by Leonard Sylvia

[Genevanpreacher]

no, what is the sipiritual significance of that verse? there is a reason why I ask. i will answer when one does.

I am confused. Spiritual significance? It looks like plain facts here, nothing spiritual that my eyes can see. Wanna give me something my ears can hear?

Maybe not everything has a spiritual significance?

The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

Oh. I see.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0542.htm

"because greatness of divine skill is as apparent in the minute as in the magnificent: and even so in Holy Writ, the little things which are embalmed in the amber of inspiration are far from inappropriate or unwise."

Edited July 31, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[Leonard Sylvia]

I am confused. Spiritual significance? It looks like plain facts here, nothing spiritual that my eyes can see. Wanna give me something my ears can hear?

Maybe not everything has a spiritual significance?

The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

right, contextually, this is nothing. Just instruction to bring Paul things. we have to use all of Scripture to align what we read and interpret. Paul and the writer in Hebrews are writing to believers. Using the examples i set forth earlier, we can come to that conclusion. Unless you hold to a Semi-Pelagian position.

[heartstrings]

The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

If nothing else it shows that serving God and others, writing down the Word of God, inspired by the Holy Ghost, was most important to Paul.

 

 

 

          9 hours ago, heartstrings said:

Are those who are not 'elect', the enemies of God?

if they are not saved, what do you think?

 

 

I know what I think: I'm asking you.

[Leonard Sylvia]

I would say if they are not elect, then they are not. You see, this ties in to mans inability to save him self, There is none righteous, is that correct? does not Scripture say that nobody seeks after God? So if they are not saved, they are at enmity with God.

I know most everybody here is premillinialist dispensationalist, and you are not fans of the TULIP. But if you deny total depravity, i think there is a fundamental problem with your theology. Limited atonement, preservation of the saints, I get it. but if you think that man has good in him, there are serious issues.

[heartstrings]

I would say if they are not elect, then they are not. You see, this ties in to mans inability to save him self, There is none righteous, is that correct? does not Scripture say that nobody seeks after God? So if they are not saved, they are at enmity with God.

I know most everybody here is premillinialist dispensationalist, and you are not fans of the TULIP. But if you deny total depravity, i think there is a fundamental problem with your theology. Limited atonement, preservation of the saints, I get it. but if you think that man has good in him, there are serious issues.

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Does God love those who are not elect?

[Leonard Sylvia]

I would say so, Jesus loved the rich young ruler. And shows a common grace to all men and Scripture says he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Leonard Sylvia

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The Jews claimed that they were God's elect. 

Much like the Calvinist's believe today.  Hey, are you admitting that, just like Nicodemus was lost and needed to be born again, the Calvinist's are also lost?

Edited August 1, 2015 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Covenanter]

 

"Leonard Sylvia said:  The Jews claimed that they were God's elect.

Standing Firm In Christ said: Much like the Calvinist's believe today.  Hey, are you admitting that, just like Nicodemus was lost and needed to be born again, the Calvinist's are also lost?"

 

I tend to stay out of discussions about "calvinism" out of respect for the forum staff. I do contribute where clarification is needed. 

As the Presbyterian said to the Anglican, "You are only miserable sinners, we are totally depraved."

Certainly the Israelites were chosen by God:

Deut. 7:⁶ For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God: the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. ⁷ The Lord did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: ⁸ but because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. ⁹ Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations; ¹⁰ and repayeth them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hateth him, he will repay him to his face. ¹¹ Thou shalt therefore keep the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command thee this day, to do them.

That electing love did not preserve (save) those who rejected - hated - their God. John & Jesus warned their hearers against trusting in the promises to Abraham, & their descent from him:

Mat. 3:⁷ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? ⁸ Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: ⁹ and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

John 8:³⁹ They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. ⁴⁰ But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. ⁴¹ Ye do the deeds of your father.
Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. ⁴² Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. ⁴³ Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. ⁴⁴ Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

We can only prove our election by our repentance & faith in Jesus, & living as children of God:

Acts 26:¹⁹ Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: ²⁰ but shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. ²¹ For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. ²² Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: ²³ that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.The bottom line 

The bottom line is that we have a Gospel centred on Jesus, Lord, God & Saviour. The same Gospel saves us all. We do not know who is elect, except by their salvation. Free-will preachers are just as elect & secure in Christ as "hard-line" Calvinists. We must not develop theology based on a doctrinal system, but on Scripture. Logical arguments starting from one's understanding of another's doctrine will always be unfruitful.

 

 

 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Are free-will Believers just as saved as hard core Calvinist's?  

 

The free will Believer looks to a Christ died That all men might be saved.  The Calvinist Believer looks to a Christ that died that only an elect few could be saved.

 

things that are different are not the same.

[Leonard Sylvia]

Of course free willer's are saved. it is Jesus that saves, not that you a monergistic or synergistic belief. 

There is a false assumption that people who are monergistic do not evangelize. Google quotes from Calvin on the subject, you'll be surprised what he taught on the subject.