Understanding Hebrews - 3

[Covenanter]

Heb. 12:12-17

Where did Esau go wrong?

Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

He had a deceiver for a brother, who was so covetous that he demanded the birthright before giving food, & despite misgivings, lied & supplanted his brother to receive a stolen blessing. When they meet up again, he graciously forgives Jacob, & offers assistance & protection. Yet Jacob gets the blessings. 

[Alan]

Esau is the problem.He was a profane, worldly, man that did not have any concern for spiritual things. Esau did not deserve the blessing at all. He sold the blessings and then it was not his: it was Jacob's.

Hell is full of people who are like Esau. They want nothing to do with God in this life and the think differently later. Too late.

Remember the folks that Noah preached to? Once the rain started to come down they begged to be let into the Ark. But, they were too late. Like Esau.

Remember the five unwise virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 that waited to late to buy oil? They were too late and the door was shut. Like Esau.

Esau is the problem. He was profane and did not want anything that was connected to God.  When a person is profane and sells his soul to the devil, the world, or his flesh, after the deed is done it is tolate to rectify it. Hell is full of men and women that  followed the path of Esau.

I do now want to try and justify Jacob's wrong doings. Jacob trusted in God and loved God. At times Jacob walked in the flesh and he then reaped what he sowed.  The problems in Jacob's life was dueo his walking in the flesh; like many saints in our age.

Oh, by the way, Jacob, and the rest of the sons of Israel, still have the blessings of God that God promised them in the Millenial Reign of Christ. The profane religionsof the world wants the blessings of the elect sons of Israel but God will not give them to the profane.

[Covenanter]

But my "like" of the last post doesn't apply to the last paragraph - but that's for another discussion. 

===========

As I understand Genesis, God intended the promises to Abraham to run through Isaac & Jacob, rather than Ishmael & Esau. There are dangers in contriving to make the promises of God happen in OUR way, instead of leaving them to HIS way. 

If Rebecca & Jacob had stayed out of "blessing" action, would Esau have received the blessing Isaac gave Jacob by mistake? I think not. That blessing of Jacob is inspired Scripture, as is the blessing actually given to Esau. Note - Gen. 27:33 

The essential failure of Esau is his carnal - profane - thinking, contrasted with Jacob's thinking in terms of the promises. Esau's hatred subsided after Jacob's departure, & it seems he became content with material prosperity, to such an extent that his desire for revenge faded with increase in riches. Gen. 33:4-11 Esau's attitude is that of the Laodiceans - Rev. 3:17-18 God hates such carnal contentment - he rebukes & chastens in love. 

In scheming to get God's promises, Jacob's supplanting of his brother actually lost him everything but those promises, which were his anyway. He was sent away with only what he could carry - not with servants or riches to present to a wife as Abraham's servant was. Gen. 32:9-10 . BUT he went with a real intended blessing from his father - Gen. 28:3-4 - the blessing of Abraham. And when sleeping rough at Bethel, he had that wonderful "Damascus road" experience when God himself blessed him. Gen. 28:10-22 . Jacob is now a real Israelite with real promises to live by faith. 

Dare we live as Esau, trusting & hoping in carnal, profane, material riches; even thinking that material riches represent God's blessing; rather than the real & spiritual promises of eternal blessings? 

 

[Covenanter]

Heb. 12:18 begins a new section, but, being introduced by "For" links to what has gone before. Such links are important to our understanding of Scripture as they remind us that every Scripture has a context. 

[Covenanter]

.......

Oh, by the way, Jacob, and the rest of the sons of Israel, still have the blessings of God that God promised them in the Millenial Reign of Christ. The profane religions of the world wants the blessings of the elect sons of Israel but God will not give them to the profane.

​That comment assumes a lot of arguments that do not arise from a study of Hebrews. The force of Hebrews, from the opening verses, is that Jesus is God's last word to Israel. Heb. 1:1-4  If Israel wants the promised blessings, come to God TODAY.  Heb. 2:1-4  Heb. 3:7-13 

This letter of exhortation to the Hebrews is not a promise of millennial blessings in a future dispensation, after 100 generations of Jews have perished in unbelief, but an extended contrast between the old covenant situation given through Moses, & the new covenant realisation of all the promises given in Christ. Heb. 3:1-6  Heb. 8:6-13  Blessings in Christ available TODAY. 

That exhortation included a warning that the time for repentance for national Israel was fast running out. Judgment would come before the generation that rejected its Messiah had passed. The writer understands that as 40 years. Heb. 3:17-19  That 40 years ran out in AD 70. Jesus contrasted Israel's situation with Nineveh. Nineveh was given 40 days warning, repented, & was spared. Mat. 12:38-41  Israel was given a generation of 40 years. Many thousands did repent, & were saved, but the leadership & the majority of that generation persisted in their rejection of their Messiah, & perished. 

Today the sons of Israel have free access to all the promises of God in Christ by the Gospel. There is a very significant expression in Heb. 8:10 - I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

That relationship transcends Jew/Gentile racial divides & unites all true believers. Arguments about Israel versus the church & who gets which promises when become irrelevant. All the redeemed people of God are one in Christ, & all the promises will be fully realised in the new heaven & new earth, of which Hebrews gives Abraham's expectation. Heb. 11:13-16 

 

 

 

 

[Alan]

Alan [previously] said: Oh, by the way, Jacob, and the rest of the sons of Israel, still have the blessings of God that God promised them in the Millennial Reign of Christ. The profane religions of the world wants the blessings of the elect sons of Israel but God will not give them to the profane.

​Covenanter said: That comment assumes a lot of arguments that do not arise from a study of Hebrews. The force of Hebrews, from the opening verses, is that Jesus is God's last word to Israel. Heb. 1:1-4  If Israel wants the promised blessings, come to God TODAY.  Heb. 2:1-4  Heb. 3:7-13

 Alan response: The comment stands, and is still true, and it is applicable to this thread. The subject matter was Esau, which you quoted, Hebrews 12:16, “Lest thee any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.” The subject was that Esau willingly sold his birthright. Therefore, the land of Israel still belongs to the Jewish race through Jacob. Of which they will inherit during the Millennium. The writer of Hebrews did not intend his book to be the last word to Israel. This is your own interpretation and is nowhere insinuated in Hebrews. Revelation, and the unfulfilled prophecies of the Old Testament prophets, are the last words to the nation of Israel.

This letter of exhortation to the Hebrews is not a promise of millennial blessings in a future dispensation, after 100 generations of Jews have perished in unbelief, but an extended contrast between the old covenant situation given through Moses, & the new covenant realization of all the promises given in Christ. Heb. 3:1-6  Heb. 8:6-13  Blessings in Christ available TODAY. 

Alan response: Hebrews was written for numerous reasons. There are still numerous Old Testament prophecies unfilled and we are still waiting for the Lord Jesus to fulfill them. There is still a remnant of believing Jews and the statement, ‘after 100 generations of Jews perished in unbelief,’ can be applied to any Gentile nationality. Also, it is an unwarranted slap in the face of the Jewish race. Have you forgotten Romans 11:5? “Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.” This is a direct reference to the Chosen, and Elected, nation of Israel.

Covenanter said: That exhortation included a warning that the time for repentance for national Israel was fast running out. Judgment would come before the generation that rejected its Messiah had passed. The writer understands that as 40 years. Heb. 3:17-19  That 40 years ran out in AD 70.

Alan response: Time did not run out on national Israel. To use Hebrews 3:17-19 as a proof text for time running out for Israel in A. D. 70 is an incorrect division of the scripture. First: A generation in the Bible can mean 40 years, 70 years or 100 years or the life span of an average person. Before the flood, and during the Millennium, a man’s lifespan will be close to a thousand years. Second: Matthew 24:34, “Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” There are three questions concerning prophecy that the Lord Jesus answered in Matthew 24. The prophesies were not, I repeat, were not all fulfilled, in A. D. 70. Only some partial prophecies were fulfilled. Matthew 24 is yet to be fulfilled.

Covenanter said: Jesus contrasted Israel's situation with Nineveh. Nineveh was given 40 days warning, repented, & was spared. Mat. 12:38-41  Israel was given a generation of 40 years. Many thousands did repent, & were saved, but the leadership & the majority of that generation persisted in their rejection of their Messiah, & perished. 

Alan responded: Matthew 12:38-41 is a prophecy of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ and applicable to anybody in any generation. Yes, it does apply to that generation of Jews, but, to just apply this section to the Jews is incorrect. Yes. That generation of Jews was wicked, verse 45, and so is every generation, and person, that rejects the Lord Jesus. To insinuate that it only applies to national Israel is not correct. And, the Lord Jesus did not say that negates any prophesies to national Israel.

Covenanter said: Today the sons of Israel have free access to all the promises of God in Christ by the Gospel. There is a very significant expression in Heb. 8:10 - I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

That relationship transcends Jew/Gentile racial divides & unites all true believers. Arguments about Israel versus the church & who gets which promises when become irrelevant. All the redeemed people of God are one in Christ, & all the promises will be fully realized in the new heaven & new earth, of which Hebrews gives Abraham's expectation. Heb. 11:13-16  

 Alan responded: To state, ‘Arguments about Israel verses the church & who get which promises when [then] become irrelevant.’ Maybe they become irrelevant to you, our A- millennial and ‘Replacement Theology’ friends, compromisers and other likeminded folks; but it is relevant to God and His promises. Hebrews 11:13-16 is a direct reference to Revelation 21:10 to Eternity. It is not a reference to the Millennial Reign of Christ, sitting on His throne in Jerusalem, Revelation 20:3-6

[Potatochip]

Esau is the problem.He was a profane, worldly, man that did not have any concern for spiritual things. Esau did not deserve the blessing at all. He sold the blessings and then it was not his: it was Jacob's.

Hell is full of people who are like Esau. They want nothing to do with God in this life and the think differently later. Too late.

Remember the folks that Noah preached to? Once the rain started to come down they begged to be let into the Ark. But, they were too late. Like Esau.

Remember the five unwise virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 that waited to late to buy oil? They were too late and the door was shut. Like Esau.

Esau is the problem. He was profane and did not want anything that was connected to God.  When a person is profane and sells his soul to the devil, the world, or his flesh, after the deed is done it is tolate to rectify it. Hell is full of men and women that  followed the path of Esau.

I do now want to try and justify Jacob's wrong doings. Jacob trusted in God and loved God. At times Jacob walked in the flesh and he then reaped what he sowed.  The problems in Jacob's life was dueo his walking in the flesh; like many saints in our age.

Oh, by the way, Jacob, and the rest of the sons of Israel, still have the blessings of God that God promised them in the Millenial Reign of Christ. The profane religionsof the world wants the blessings of the elect sons of Israel but God will not give them to the profane.

Alan,  I am not going to pretend to know this subject lol.  Its confusing to me.  So I'm asking.  Now I have heard a Jew a believer say Jews do not follow the laws of the Torah anymore.  

Now you say Millenial Reign of Christ.  That I understand.

I am looking for an education here lol.  Do you believe and can tell me why.  Or anyone else here.  That Israel still has all the other promises at this time.  That were given in the OT.  Many of them seem quite successful.  Its a source of confusion to me and maybe some others.  Could you help clear that up?  Are those promises in effect and working for them at this point.  Seeing that they reject Christ? For the mostpart.

[Covenanter]

Thanks Alan & Potatochip - I have replied in detail to Alan by PM. Hebrews is concerned that his readers should find their salvation in Christ as a matter of urgency - today! Whatever their hope are in the Old Covenant promises, come now to Jesus for the New Covenant. Whatever our belief in the millennium, we must not delay our repentance.

And both Jews & Gentiles are welcomed by the Gospel; I do not believe in any continuing punishment for Israel. We & they are all sinners who need, & are welcomed by the Gospel of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Alan]

Potatochip said: Alan,  I am not going to pretend to know this subject lol.  Its confusing to me.  So I'm asking.  Now I have heard a Jew a believer say Jews do not follow the laws of the Torah anymore.  

Now you say Millenial Reign of Christ.  That I understand.

I am looking for an education here lol.  Do you believe and can tell me why.  Or anyone else here.  That Israel still has all the other promises at this time.  That were given in the OT.  Many of them seem quite successful.  Its a source of confusion to me and maybe some others.  Could you help clear that up?  Are those promises in effect and working for them at this point.  Seeing that they reject Christ? For the mostpart.

Potatochip, As this thread is a thread started by Covenanter, and your question is not applicable to his teaching, I will answer your question later in another forum, or, I will answer you privately by 'personal messenger.' Either way, it is a good question and requires a lengthly answer with detailed specific Old Testament prophesies and New Testament fulfillments. I will let you know when I am ready. AlanTaiwan

Covenanter, As the writer of Hebrews states that salvation is vitally important and urgent, and that the main thrust of Hebrews is the finished work of Christ, the doctrine of  faith, the doctrine of our Great High Priest and His atonement, heaven, and other doctrines pertinent to faith, I will not try and distrupt this thread in that aspect. The doctrine of the Millenium is only hinted at in Hebrews, as in Esau, so we will continue the discussion of that aspect only when absolutely necessary in this thread. I have read your private message, and I agree as you suggest that this thread is not the place coninue a detailed discussion in order to not distract ther reader from other important doctrines. So, later on, in a more appropriate thread, we will discuss it further. As to my previous post rebutting your Esau comments I stand by every word and thought.

Respectfully, Alan

 

[Covenanter]

As we consider Heb. 12:18-29 we need to see the "For" as referring back to Esau, and, in the overall context of Hebrews - the strong exhortation to follow Christ alone in the new covenant, rather than keep a foot in the old covenant, by following Moses also. 

In Gal. 4:21-31 Paul makes an extraordinary allegory - the Jews who want to be under the Law are children of Hagar, born after the flesh, not children of Sarah, by promise.  25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. The old covenant keeps its followers in bondage to the Law. Those who are ...  the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus .... are [ye] Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

I would not dare use such an "antisemitic" allegory without such precedent. We see a similar allegory in Hebrews 12, regarding Esau, the rejected son of Isaac, as representing those who still cling to Sinai. 

Heb. 12:18-21  refers to the giving of the Law in Exodus 19 & 20. We nee also to note Deu. 18:15-19 v. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. So, when Messiah came, none of the terrible events surrounding the giving of the Law at Sinai occurred to terrify the people of Israel. Jesus appeared like an everyday manual worker they could ignore or reject when he spoke in his home town of Nazareth. (Luke 4) Did that mean they were free to ignore him, reject him or neglect so great salvation? ( Heb. 2:1-4 ) Certainly NOT. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Peter quotes Deut. 18 in Acts 3:22-26 . 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

The Hebrews are living dangerously, preferring Sinai & the old covenant  to Christ & the new covenant. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Covenanter]

As we come to Heb. 12:22-29 we see the extraordinary contrast between Law & Grace; between Moses & Jesus; between old & new covenants. 

But, no-one was saved by keeping the Law, only by living by faith - by circumcision of the heart, not the flesh. In practice we see the old covenant believers having a living faith in the God they loved. They knew his salvation & could even delight in his Law. Psalm 1:2 The Psalms show a wonderful relationship with God that was not achieved by slavish obedience. 

The terrifying giving of the Law was preceded & accompanied by gracious promises. Exo. 19:3-6 Those promises were evidently not dependent on perfect obedience, but on willing obedience, walking in humility & trust with God. The Pharisees tried to keep the Law by slavish obedience & forgot the greatest commandments of love. The big difference is the national aspects of the old covenant relationship, contrasted with the personal relation of the believer with God. 

Those old covenant believers, commended as they lived by faith, are fellow citizens with us of the heavenly Jerusalem, ..... the spirits of just men made perfect. The eternal spiritual reality of our relationship with our God & Saviour. 

The blood of Abel is contrasted with the blood of Jesus, Abel's blood requiring judgment on the offender, but Jesus' blood atoning for sin, as a propitiation for guilty sinners who come in repentance. 

There is a serious warning, though. Under the old covenant Law, disobedience was punished by fallible human judgment. Sacrifices for sin were provided under the old covenant, the sacrifice of animals covering sin, & were offered repeatedly. Turn away from Jesus & his sacrifice, & there is no escape.

[Alan]

Amen! Psalm 1:2, "But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night."

Covenanter,  I am glad that you brought out the contrast between delighting in the law of God by David, and numerous other Old Testament saints, and the slavish attitude of the Pharisees in the time of the Lord Jesus. Excellent contrast and exposition of the scriptures. God has always desired a heart felt relationship, by faith, in every dispensation.

[Covenanter]

As we come to the closing verses of Heb. 12, we need again to remind ourselves of the thrust of the letter - the urgency of repentance & trust in Christ alone, not holding on to the old covenant rituals. 

25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrews is quoting Haggai 2:5-9  & Hag. 2:20-23 a message delivered as the temple was being rebuilt after the captivity in Babylon. They are now obediently rebuilding the temple, as Daniel put it, to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince.   

The desire of all nations came, and was despised & rejected. The glory of this latter house was never greater than of the former. And the Prince of Peace was rejected & crucified, so how was that wonderful prophecy fulfilled?  

As ever, Jesus & his saving Gospel give the answer.

To be continued. 

[Covenanter]

I'm quoting from my comments on the end of chapter 10:

Heb. 10:35-39 Jesus is coming - he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. We need to remember the confused situation in Judea to which Hebrews was written, in around AD 60. Read Acts 21. The temple was standing, & old covenant sacrifices were being offered by many thousands of Christian believers. Paul was persuaded to join in such an offering, but was prevented. The 40 years of grace was coming to an end. Jesus had warned prophetically:

Mark 12:9 What shall therefore the lord of the vineyard do? he will come and destroy the husbandmen, and will give the vineyard unto others.

It is that coming that was imminent, not what we understand as his second coming for resurrection & judgement. (Or "rapture.") See Heb. 3:12-19 Jesus referred to the sign of Jonah - the Ninevites were given 40 days, & repented. The Jews were given a generation of 40 years. There was still time to repent. But judgement was certainly coming, so how should they live in a rebellious situation? Take the lesson from Habakkuk facing the Chaldean invasion - live by faith.

The visible signs of the old covenant - the temple, priesthood & sacrifices, etc, were still continuing. Those who still trusted in Moses, while professing faith in Jesus will soon have no option. 

27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

The temple, & Jerusalem are about to be destroyed according to Jesus' Olivet prophecy. All those things that are shaken, as of things that are made will be removed - & were in AD 70. What would remain would be the spiritual realities, worship in spirit & in truth, the living temple built with living stones etc. The priesthood of believers under our Great High Priest the only sacrifice. The message of Habakkuk stands to this day - the just shall live by faith. And of course the Word of God spoken first by his prophets, & in these last days by his Son & confirmed by his Apostles. These are those things that cannot be shaken.

I do not believe that Scripture prophesies a rebuilding of the things that are made at the end of time. Any attempt to do so will be in unbelief, in defiance of the judgement of Christ, & will be without prophetic significance. We are living by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ & his finished work. Our hope in is his glorious return for resurrection & judgement. 

Heb. 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

[DaveW]

Time and again your false views on AD70 and the destruction of the temple have been pointed out and shown to be unbiblical.

There is no point in rehashing the information, for you disregard it no matter how it is presented.