Regeneration And Believing.

[Covenanter]

I've waited for someone to point out a particular verse, but I haven't seen it.  If I've overlooked it, please forgive me. First, what is regeneration?

 

Regeneration - the act of producing anew.

 

Maybe I see this as too simple, but I think it's plain and OBvious that one must be saved before regeneration according to this...

 

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

One MUST be "in Christ" in order to be a new creature. One can't be "in Christ" without having accepted his offer of salvation; therefore, belief (or faith) MUST precede regeneration.

Is belief saving faith? Can we believe without faith? Jesus thought so:

John 2:²³ Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. ²⁴ But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, ²⁵ and needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.

3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: ² the same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. ³ Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 

12:⁴² Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: ⁴³ for they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

 

Jesus told the parable of the sower.

Mat. 13:¹⁸ Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. ¹⁹ When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. ²⁰ But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; ²¹ yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. ²² He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. ²³ But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Were those who with joy receiveth it & those who becometh unfruitful saved? Were they born again? Clearly they believed, but did they have a true faith in Christ?

 

Notice also John 1:

¹¹ He came unto his own, and his own received him not. ¹² But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: ¹³ which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

If you believe on his name you were born .... of God.

 

I repeat, the question is foolish. faith (not mere belief) is man's response to God, and accompanies regeneration. You can't have one without the other. If you are regenerate, you have saving faith, & if you have saving faith you are regenerate.

 

It is sad that the way this discussion degenerated into an attack on "calvinism." It's about salvation. The work of God & the response of man.

[DaveW]

The discussion has not degenerated at all - it was always about Calvinism.
You keep saying it is a foolish question and yet it was argued vehemently by a Calvinist.
You also state clearly that you agree with his view, and then say it is unimportant.

Well plainly it is not unimportant - it is vital to salvation - it makes a massive difference.
I asked specifically for verses that support the view that a man must be regenerated before he can believe and you have given a few verses that are vague and do not support that view.

To find relevant verses that I could add to my study was actually my intent, but no real relevant passages have been given.

All passages I have found do not separate regeneration and belief, and there is no support for his and your view - that is why you say it is foolish - because it is Biblically unsupportable.

Well, I am studying the Word on this issue and will follow it.

[heartstrings]

This is one they might misrepresent, but I'm not sure; I have seen them quote it before.

 

Jeremiah 1:4Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

Of course, careful reading will show that's not what it's saying at all.

[heartstrings]

If you want to argue against Reformed doctrine, you should try to understand it. The "calvinist" Spurgeon argued strongly against "hypercalvinism." The essential difference is that the true "calvinist" reasons from Scripture, while the "hypercalvinist" develops his arguments by the logical developments from "calvinism." .......

The only difference in a 'true calvinist' and a 'hyper' one is that the latter might need a prescription for Ritalin    

 

Seriously, is this man, John Piper, a 'hyper calvinist? Because he believes essentially what you do, Covenanter.

 

The "sixth" point, double predestination, is simply the flip side of unconditional election. Just as God chooses whom He will save without regard to any distinctives in the person (Ephesians 1:5-6; Acts 13:48; Revelation 17:8), so also he decides whom He will not save without regard to any distinctives in the individual (John 10:26; 12:37-40; Romans 9:11-18; 1 Peter 2:7-8). By definition, the decision to elect some individuals to salvation necessarily implies the decision not to save those that were not chosen. God ordains not only that some will be rescued from his judgment, but that others will undergo that judgment. 

 

 

..... we are all dead in sin and unwilling to seek God on our own. A true, genuine desire for salvation in Christ is in fact a mark of election, ....

 

In other words, only those God as 'regenerated' beforehand will come to Christ, right? Isn't that what you believe?

 

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-does-piper-mean-when-he-says-hes-a-seven-point-calvinist

[Genevanpreacher]

If I may interject a somewhat different view on this subject (if I have missed it in a previous post, I apologize.)

 

God sees all of time on a singular plane of existence, or so I have been taught,

and I rather believe it myself, just for the reason that God is all-knowing,

(knowing the beginning and the ending etc.), so I suggest that from God's view of salvation,

(you know,  since he knows who is 'gonna be saved' and who 'is not gonna be saved'), 

that he views salvation as - 'already occurring' -  from our perspective of - 'just now believing'.

 

Really, from God's perspective, we are already in his presence in glory. If that teaching is factual.

So, since God is all-knowing (omniscient - having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight) I think he might see

repentance, believing, conversion, faith, regeneration, being born again, etc. as occurring at the same instant.

 

From his point of view, anyway.

 

Just a thought.

 

[DaveW]

If I may interject a somewhat different view on this subject (if I have missed it in a previous post, I apologize.)

God sees all of time on a singular plane of existence, or so I have been taught,
and I rather believe it myself, just for the reason that God is all-knowing,
(knowing the beginning and the ending etc.), so I suggest that from God's view of salvation,
(you know, since he knows who is 'gonna be saved' and who 'is not gonna be saved'),
that he views salvation as - 'already occurring' - from our perspective of - 'just now believing'.

Really, from God's perspective, we are already in his presence in glory. If that teaching is factual.
So, since God is all-knowing (omniscient - having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight) I think he might see
repentance, believing, conversion, faith, regeneration, being born again, etc. as occurring at the same instant.

From his point of view, anyway.

Just a thought.

We are talking about what this man - a classic Calvinist, who by the way is from a Reformed church - is teaching. But if it is a Biblical teaching, then it must be Biblically supportable - and as far as I can see it is not.

[Miss Daisy]

Covenantor will just go in circles time and time again. Why he even wants to be on this site I don't understand. I wouldn't want to be on a site full of people who don't agree with me but maybe one or two others.

[No Nicolaitans]

Is belief saving faith? 

 

I repeat, the question is foolish. faith (not mere belief) is man's response to God, and accompanies regeneration. You can't have one without the other. If you are regenerate, you have saving faith, & if you have saving faith you are regenerate.

 

 

Yes, even the devils "believe".  That's why I was careful to associate the "belief" that I spoke of as "faith" (see my original comment highlighted in blue in the quote below). I was of the mindset that the belief spoken of in this thread was "saving faith".

 

 

One MUST be "in Christ" in order to be a new creature. One can't be "in Christ" without having accepted his offer of salvation; therefore, belief (or faith) MUST precede regeneration.

[Covenanter]

Covenanter:

I repeat, the question is foolish. faith (not mere belief) is man's response to God, and accompanies regeneration. You can't have one without the other. If you are regenerate, you have saving faith, & if you have saving faith you are regenerate.

 

The discussion has not degenerated at all - it was always about Calvinism.
You keep saying it is a foolish question and yet it was argued vehemently by a Calvinist.
You also state clearly that you agree with his view, and then say it is unimportant.

Well plainly it is not unimportant - it is vital to salvation - it makes a massive difference.
I asked specifically for verses that support the view that a man must be regenerated before he can believe and you have given a few verses that are vague and do not support that view.

To find relevant verses that I could add to my study was actually my intent, but no real relevant passages have been given.

All passages I have found do not separate regeneration and belief, and there is no support for his and your view - that is why you say it is foolish - because it is Biblically unsupportable.

Well, I am studying the Word on this issue and will follow it.

Look at both posts & try to understand that there is in fact NO DIFFERENCE between my opinion & yours on this matter. Regeneration & saving faith are inseparable.

 

In my first post on this thread I wrote:

 

I tend to the view that God gives life (regeneration) before we can believe, but the two are so linked that argument is pointless. Much more important is the double question - "do you believe in Jesus as Lord & Saviour? Are you born again?"

 

[DaveW]

Look at both posts & try to understand that there is in fact NO DIFFERENCE between my opinion & yours on this matter. Regeneration & saving faith are inseparable.

In my first post on this thread I wrote:

Yeah, the guy said exactly the same thing but STILL argued that a man can not have faith without being regenerated first.

You keep saying it is basically irrelevant but it is not.

The point is that if you must be regenerated before you can have faith, the salvation is by command not faith - it matters not if "the two are basically inseparable" if you move salvation from faith to command, then you change the basis of salvation.

Regardless of your constant cry that it is essentially irrelevant, it is vitally important that your view on salvation is Biblically supportable.
Shouting louder does not make you a winner.

If you really believe as you have stated that regeneration is essential before belief then YOU MUST BE ABLE TO BIBLICALLY DEFEND THAT.

I have not even asked you to do that - just supply "proof texts" that I might study for myself.

You have not done so, but keep saying it doesn't actually matter.
That smacks of a concession that there is no proof for an essential point of salvation.

You will go on to say that God chooses who will be saved, and that relies ENTIRELY on the premise that God must renew a man before he can believe.

So stop avoiding it and BIBLICALLY PROVE your position.

[Invicta]

I hope I am not too far off topic here.

 

I often (or sometimes perhaps) hear people pray that so and so may come to "saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus".  Is that correct or not.  It seems to me that faith save, not knowledge.

[Genevanpreacher]

Knowledge that convinces the listener that the gospel is true.

You know preaching the word, not just reading the word.

That is Spirit led, like Philip explaining and the eunuch getting to know?

He heard, Philip spoke, the eunuch 'growing in knowledge' and

believing according to that knowledge.

 

Good example of faith (and believing) with conversion at the same time?

 

I do not hold to the 'doctrine' that some teach, that there can be a head knowledge but not a heart knowledge.

God gave us a brain to use to 'mold' our belief, and affects the heart, of the one receiving the gospel, to believe.

[MountainChristian]

I hope I am not too far off topic here.

 

I often (or sometimes perhaps) hear people pray that so and so may come to "saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus".  Is that correct or not.  It seems to me that faith save, not knowledge.

 

I've prayed that many times. I've always thought of it like Acts 8, when Philip explained who Jesus was to the Ethiopian Eunuch. He needed to know who to have faith in for salvation. 

[Ukulelemike]

Saving faith brings regeneration, regeneration does not bring saving faith. They are NOT the same thing-one is the result of the other. First, faith, then regeneration.

[Covenanter]

I hope I am not too far off topic here.

 

I often (or sometimes perhaps) hear people pray that so and so may come to "saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus".  Is that correct or not.  It seems to me that faith save, not knowledge.

John 17:1-3