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Regeneration And Believing.


DaveW

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I had a discussion with a man a couple of weeks ago, and in that discussion this man was adamant that a man must be regenerated before he can believe.
I have searched the Scriptures regarding this matter and so far have found no Scriptures that support his position.

I was wondering if any of our members have such Scriptures supporting this position and would like to share them do that I may study them directly.

I will likely not argue against them in this thread as my OBjective is to find the kind of scriptures he would use.

They simply are not apparent to me.

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I had a discussion with a man a couple of weeks ago, and in that discussion this man was adamant that a man must be regenerated before he can believe.
I have searched the Scriptures regarding this matter and so far have found Scriptures that support his position.

I was wondering if any of our members have such Scriptures supporting this position and would like to share them do that I may study them directly.

I will likely not argue against them in this thread as my OBjective is to find the kind of scriptures he would use.

They simply are not apparent to me.

The age old 'regeneration precedes faith' argument from Calvinists. I have an article on that on my other forum on Calvinism somewhere, I'll post it when I find it.

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The argument is about God's work & man's response in salvation. How do we read:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 

Is anyone regenerated, but does not believe, & can anyone believe without being regenerated? The work of the Holy Spirit in salvation is to give an awareness of God, convict of sin, show Christ as Saviour & renew the heart, so that man repents, believes in Jesus as Saviour, & lives a new life of faith. Ezek. 36 is helpful:

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

I tend to the view that God gives life (regeneration) before we can believe, but the two are so linked that argument is pointless. Much more important is the double question - "do you believe in Jesus as Lord & Saviour? Are you born again?"

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Today there are those of a Reformed persuasion who teach that regeneration precedes faith. They would say that a person must be born again before he believes. They would say that a person must have God’s LIFE before he can believe on Christ. C. D. Cole states it this way: "The Calvinist says that life must precede faith, and is logically the cause of faith. Faith did not cause the new birth, the new birth caused faith." [From a tract entitled Which Comes First In Conversion--Life or Faith? By C.D.Cole, published by Chapel Library, Venice, Florida].

Why do such men teach this? "Extreme Calvinists put the new birth before faith, since they believe that spiritually dead humans cannot exercise faith and, therefore, need to be born again before they can believe" [C. Gordon Olson, Beyond Calvinism and Arminianism, p. 39]. The doctrine of man’s total depravity has been carried to the extreme by some Calvinists resulting in a wrong understanding of man’s inability. They believe that the sinner is dead in sin and therefore he is like a corpse, totally unable to do anything. They believe he first must be regenerated and have life and only then will he be able to believe the gospel. But the Scripture teaches that he must believe in order to have life (John 20:31).

The Philippian jailer once asked, "What must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). If Paul had been an extreme Calvinist he might have said, "You can do nothing to be saved, absolutely nothing. You are dead in sin and a dead man can do nothing. If God doesn't regenerate you, then you are doomed." How different was the answer Paul gave: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31). -- http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/reformed/regenera.htm

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The argument is about God's work & man's response in salvation. How do we read:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Is anyone regenerated, but does not believe, & can anyone believe without being regenerated? The work of the Holy Spirit in salvation is to give an awareness of God, convict of sin, show Christ as Saviour & renew the heart, so that man repents, believes in Jesus as Saviour, & lives a new life of faith. Ezek. 36 is helpful:

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


I tend to the view that God gives life (regeneration) before we can believe, but the two are so linked that argument is pointless. Much more important is the double question - "do you believe in Jesus as Lord & Saviour? Are you born again?"

I know what the argument is.

What I want is some scriptures to support the argument.
I am doing a full study on this particular aspect - 12 pages of verses and notes so far - but I have not found one single scripture supporting the idea that a man must be regenerated before he can believe.

Not one....

Come on - it can't be too hard to find a Scripture to support this most essential point.

Is regeneration the result of believing faith, or the cause of it.
My studies so far find that believe for regeneration is OBvious and clear in Scripture, but belief BECAUSE OF regeneration is Biblically unknown.

Please point me to some Scriptures that I can study to support this man's position.
So far my study is embarrassingly one sided.

His argument was based almost exclusively on the illustration of a dead man being unable to respond - but I can't even find that in Scripture. .......
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I have to agree with Spurgeon on this one...

"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [sermon entitled The Warrant of Faith].

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Eze. 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

 

 

His argument was based almost exclusively on the illustration of a dead man being unable to respond - but I can't even find that in Scripture. .......

Eph. 2 would be the proof text.

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disOBedience: 3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

If a person has faith before regeneration, is he saved while being unregenerate? And if he is regenerated before faith, is he saved by grace without faith?

 

The Spurgeon quotation is against hypercalvinism, that then was insisting that they should only preach to the spiritually awakened - as the dead cannot hear or act. Scripture insists on preaching to all -

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

There is a Gospel urgency that our answers to the OP should not affect. We should not allow it to become a foolish question for intellectual debate. A new-born baby breathes & cries to announce the new life, & a new-born soul likewise. But both show signs of life before birth.

 

 

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Eze. 37:11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.


Eph. 2 would be the proof text.

Eph. 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disOBedience: 3 among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


If a person has faith before regeneration, is he saved while being unregenerate? And if he is regenerated before faith, is he saved by grace without faith?

The Spurgeon quotation is against hypercalvinism, that then was insisting that they should only preach to the spiritually awakened - as the dead cannot hear or act. Scripture insists on preaching to all -

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


There is a Gospel urgency that our answers to the OP should not affect. We should not allow it to become a foolish question for intellectual debate. A new-born baby breathes & cries to announce the new life, & a new-born soul likewise. But both show signs of life before birth.

I will add the passages - thank you.

Your premise that faith comes before regeneration was not proposed by me, nor do I subscribe to such.
What you suggest there is a classic "straw man" argument. Propose something not suggested and refute it.

The order of things was suggested by the gentleman, in just the way you have done.

By the way, there is no such thing as hyper Calvinism. It is true Calvinism.

As far as it being a foolish question - I agree.
But this man organized an appointment with me (under false pretenses I might add) and he was the one who proposed such and argued these points.

It is incumbent upon me to return to my study and assure myself of the truth of the Bible.
If I have someone coming in and trying to influence the people at our church with false doctrine I need to protect them.
As such I want to and need to study this - and your suggesting that it is not important is rubbish in light of these events.

This man - clearly a Calvinist, and his wife, attended our church with one intent - made clear by his following actions.

And his love of Calvin's doctrine is what led him to this devious attempt to corrupt our church.
Strong language? Sure but I assure you that it is accurate. I was involved every step of the way.
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All that Eph 2, 8&9 tell us, is that salvation, and the faith required for it, are a gift from God, lest any should boast.

 

That does not, however, assume regeneration-it is faith, which can then be received or rejected.  John 1 also tells us that Christ gives light to ALL men that are born-AND jesus Himself said that when He was to be lifted up, that He would draw ALL men to Him. John the Baptist told his disciples that Jesus was "the Lamb of God which takenth away the sin of the WORLD. None of these mean that all will be saved, clearly, nor do they mean that the Lord will pre-save any, or regenerate any before salvation-

 

What it means is that salvation is available to ALL, to whosoever will-Christ lights them, gives them the gift of faith, but they can then receive and embrace that faith, and call upon the name of the Lord to be saved, or they can reject it and follow after Satan.

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The reason Calvinists had to come up with this is because it is impossible to explain the salvation of Cornelius and others like him who sought God before being saved, and in Calvinist soteriology, man is so totally depraved he does not have the ability to seek God, and therefore must be regenerated first before he can even believe. Even though the 'ordo salutis' is different in many verses, and Calvinists are all divided on just what those orders are as well- the one thing in Scripture where the order has never been backwards is that faith is required to be regenerated:

 

* In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise" Eph 1:13

 

There are a ton of other verses that show faith comes before, and is even commanded, before regeneration. Gal 3:2, Romans 5:18, John 5:28, 8:24, etc.. 

 

I have addressed a popular Calvinist argument raised by James White about the dead being able to hear in "Could Lazarus Have Said 'No'" which deals with some of the arguments used by Calvinists about the abilities of dead people, and the confusion of using spiritual death and physical death when it suits their arguments.

 

Another fancy debate tactic that they will pull if you don't pay close attention is tell you that regeneration doesn't mean salvation when they are trying to refute verses you cite about faith coming before salvation, but then switch back to the functionality of regeneration which has the effect of salvation when swimming back to their original premise. JD Hall of Reformation Montana and Pulpit and Pen tried to do this with me in a Twitter debate, and when I kept calling him out on his fallacy and forced him to stick to a defined position on regeneration, he blocked me. So before you debate a Calvinist on this make sure you nail them down on a definition of regeneration first, otherwise you will end up playing an endless game of circular reasoning with them.

 

I'll post some more later. I'm gonna see if I can track down that Twitter "debate".

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