Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

[no name joe]

KOB, I disagree with your conclusions, but gotta say that I like the principles you laid out earlier. Those are the right idea. Question, though. If you control a natural process, is it still natural? What would the fermentation produce if not controlled?

That being said, think I'll go have a drink of the 'wine' I picked up earlier tonight. Nothing better than Welch's!

 

Yes, it is natural if you control the process.  It is science and organic chemistry at work.  It is just as natural as me building a compost heap and controlling the process of decay.  If I built it right, the organic matter will decay more rapidly into wonderful compost that I then place on my garden.  I pull out weeds, plant seeds, control the water to produce the highest yield possible.  Growing food is a natural process.  If I just threw seed out and "let nature take its course," weeds would choke it out and I would not have any produce to enjoy.  Fermentation is the same.  It is a natural process, but we must oversee the process and control it to produce the best result.

[no name joe]

 

The course that you're on KOB, you may never see His face, wise up boy!  No bible believing baptist would knowingly come to your home to fellowship with a drunkard.  That's what God says you sipping saints are.  

 

 

 

Ok, this is just too funny.  A drunkard is one who drinks to excess and loses control.  I have never been drunk.  So I cannot be classified as a drunkard.  Though Jesus was accused of being a drunkard as well, so I am in good company.  ;-)  It is not scientifically possible to become drunk from a single drop of alcohol.  It is a God given substance, and as with any God given substance, it can be used responsibly or irresponsibly.  If I eat steak or other red meat every meal for my entire life, my risk of colon cancer skyrockets, and I will surely die of colon cancer.  Yet red meat is not evil.  Excess and glutony on red meat is.  Why?  It causes harmful health effects and is thus sinful.

 

My point is not to convince anyone who believes alcohol is sinful otherwise.  My point is that there are two valid interpretations, and we can all get along and remain united in Christ.  

 

As you me being a Bible believing baptist, I am a Bible believing former baptist.  Now I just consider myself a Bible believing follower of Christ who attends an Anglican church.  But that is ok.  There are many denominations and each one has wonderful parts of it.  There is room enough for us all at God's table.  Some will have wine, some will have juice.  It's all good.  :-)

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Yes, it is natural if you control the process.  It is science and organic chemistry at work.  It is just as natural as me building a compost heap and controlling the process of decay.  If I built it right, the organic matter will decay more rapidly into wonderful compost that I then place on my garden.  I pull out weeds, plant seeds, control the water to produce the highest yield possible.  Growing food is a natural process.  If I just threw seed out and "let nature take its course," weeds would choke it out and I would not have any produce to enjoy.  Fermentation is the same.  It is a natural process, but we must oversee the process and control it to produce the best result.

Sorry KoB, but if you are controlling it it is not natural.  It becomes the product of man, not nature.

[no name joe]

Sorry KoB, but if you are controlling it it is not natural.  It becomes the product of man, not nature.

 

That would make growing food in a garden a product of man as well then.  God placed humans on earth to oversee and subdue the earth. It is our job to oversee things.  We oversee gardens. Winemakers oversee the fermentation process.  It is all natural.  Making wine is just as natural as making compost.  You see that the right elements are there, keep out contaminants, and let nature take its course.  

Making beer is no different than making soup.  I cook it up, mix it, and then let nature take its course.  It is very natural.  My job is to merely keep out the contaminants.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Jesus was not accused of being a drunkard.  Had they accused Him of being a drunkard, they would have used the Greek word "methusos".  They did not use that word in their accusation though.  They used the word "oinopotes".  "oinopotes" is the product of two Greek words, "oinos", meaning wine, and "potes", meaning drink or drinker.

They accused Him of being a wine drinker, not a drunkard.

And their accusation against Him was false just as their accusation that John had a demon was false.  And Jesus told them how they could know He did not drink alcoholic wine when He answered, "But wisdom is justified of all her children."

In other words, He told them "Watch those who are mine and you will know I do not drink alcohol."

Fast forward to after the resurrection... to the Upper Room.  The Spirit fell upon the 120 assembled and they began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them the utterance.  They were accused of being drunk by the mocking crowd that assembled.  What was Peter's reply?  These men are not drunk as ye suppose, seeing this is but the third hour of the day. 

It was well known that those that got drunk got drunk in the night. (see 1 Thessalonians 5:7)  The disciples did not drink alcohol!  They walked in the manner that their Lord and Saviour walked... alcohol free so as not to forget His commands.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

That would make growing food in a garden a product of man as well then.  God placed humans on earth to oversee and subdue the earth. It is our job to oversee things.  We oversee gardens. Winemakers oversee the fermentation process.  It is all natural.  Making wine is just as natural as making compost.  You see that the right elements are there, keep out contaminants, and let nature take its course.  

Making beer is no different than making soup.  I cook it up, mix it, and then let nature take its course.  It is very natural.  My job is to merely keep out the contaminants.

Beverage alcohol is a contaminant in and of itself.  It is an intoxicant... toxic to the human organs. 

You can continue to reason out ways to justify your sin all you want, but I am afraid that if you don't repent, you will one day hear the Savior say, Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fires prepared for the devil and his angels... I never knew you.

[no name joe]

Like I said before, we can agree to disagree.  :-)

 

Nowhere in the Bible is there a requirement for salvation to not drink wine. That was a Nazerite vow.  Not to drink wine and not to cut hair.  I  have never taken a Nazerite vow.  The only requirement of salvation is confessing our sin and following Christ, which I have done and continue to do.  Nothing we do earns salvation.  And I can assure you I have never abused alcohol or become drunk.  I have other sin problem areas, but that is not one of them.  

[swathdiver]

A drunkard is one who drinks to excess and loses control.  I have never been drunk.  So I cannot be classified as a drunkard.  

 

As you me being a Bible believing baptist, I am a Bible believing former baptist.  Now I just consider myself a Bible believing follower of Christ who attends an Anglican church.  But that is ok.  There are many denominations and each one has wonderful parts of it.  There is room enough for us all at God's table.  Some will have wine, some will have juice.  It's all good.  :-)

 

Point One:  You're applying man's definition to the word drunkard, not God's.  One sip and you're changed, poisoned.

 

Point Two:  Right, you're Anglibaptist.  Ecumenical, denominations are great, everything contrary to the Bible because you use the MVs and God's true words are hid from you.  Denominations are evil and their wonderful parts are the traditions of men, not God.  It kills me that the truth is right here and you flippantly laugh it off because you're blind.  

 

My pastor recently concluded a six part series on your beloved enemy and it's on the internet.  I hope that one day when you come to repentance and put your trust in Christ that you'll seek out this series or one like it and learn what God really has to say about booze from the Scriptures.  Sitting in a pew that condones this sin and others, nobody is ever going to learn the truth.

 

From John R. Rice's God's Double Curse on Booze:

 

Who is a drunkard? When is a man a drunk? Many a man, after he has been arrested for killing somebody with his car, or after a fatal accident, says to the judge, “Why, Judge, I only had two or three beers. I wasn’t drunk.” He couldn’t drive well, couldn’t see well. He couldn’t get his foot on the brake as quickly as he ought to; he was not as reliable a driver under the influence of liquor. But he said he wasn’t drunk. Because he wasn’t unconscious or wasn’t in a stupor, he thinks he wasn’t drunk.

 

When is a man drunk? When a man has drunk, he is drunk. Anybody who drinks beverage alcohol in any degree is somewhat affected by it, and so he is drunk to that degree. A man can get more drunk than he already is. He can drink until he is unconscious and can’t drink any more. A man can drink until a certain percentage of alcohol gets into the blood and stops the motor responses so that he quits breathing and dies. Now, that is a little more drunk than he was while he was breathing. Yet he is still drunk.

 

You know that the word drunk is part of the word drink, drank, drunk; or, drink, drank, drunken. A drunkard is a man who drinks. Anybody who drinks any alcoholic liquor is under the influence of it, is affected by it, and to that degree is drunk.

 

If it takes eight glasses of beer to make a man drunk (it takes less than that for some people) then the man who has one glass is one-eighth drunk. The man who has two glasses is one-fourth drunk. And no man on-fourth drunk is safe as an engineer of a passenger train, safe to drive an automobile down the road, or safe to handle a steam shovel or a drill press, or a welding torch. No girl who is one-fourth drunk is safe in the presence of sex temptation. The man who would not gamble without drinking, will gamble when he is one-fourth drunk. And the man who never intended to take more than two glasses of beer can be tempted to take more when he is already one-fourth drunk!

[ASongOfDegrees]

So we are at the point now that if someone sips some wine they are unsaved? Really? 

[HappyChristian]

I am firmly on the side of not imbibing at all, but I'd like to see where God says taking a sip means you're a drunkard?  Not arguing it, just honestly curious where that verse is?

[no name joe]

So we are at the point now that if someone sips some wine they are unsaved? Really? 

 

Apparently so.  This reminds me of why I left the Baptist church I grew up in. There was simply no room in the church for people who had a different interpretation of the Bible. A friend of mine was called in and demanded that he stop asking theological questions by the deacons and pastors.  He and I left about the same time.  Difference between him and I was that he asked the questions out loud, and then was called before the deacon board for doing so.  Sounds like a very works based salvation to me.

 

Anyway, my current church has been a liberating experience.  Believers of all backgrounds worshiping God.  There is room for differences and we can all get along.  I am happy to have found a place where I can worship God, and discuss questions and struggles openly.  

 

My point in discussing this is to simply say there are believers who enjoy a bit of wine, an those that do not.  We can all get along even though our consciences are different on that point provided that we respect one another.  I respect the conscience of each person here and would not try to change that, and hope most here would have the same respect for me.  Though I do feel a few here do not respect my thoughts on the issue.  

[Standing Firm In Christ]

2 Timothy 4:2 (KJV) 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2 Timothy 4:3 (KJV) 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Timothy 4:4 (KJV) 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 4:5 (KJV) 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Tests show that after drinking three bottles of beer, there is an average of 13% net memory loss.  After taking only small quantities of alcohol, trained typists were tested and their errors increased 40%.  Only one ounce of alcohol increases the time required to make a decision by nearly 10 percent; hinders muscular reaction by 17 percent; increases errors due to lack of attention by 35 percent. -- Paul Harvey

swathdiver is correct.  One is partially drunk the moment one begins drinking alcohol.  One is not sober until he drinks his 4th, 5th, or 6th drink and then "BOOM" it hits him.  No, it begins working on him from the very beginning.   Partially drunk is still drunk.

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

It is toxic, a poison.  And so many don't realize that it has poisoned them from the very first drink.  One ounce... just one ounce increases reaction time by 10%.  The sad thing is, they don't even realize it... because the alcohol has deceived them just like Solomon said it does.

Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Paul instructed abstinence in his epistle to the Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

The word "sober" in those two verses is translated from the Greek word "nepho."  What does "nepho" mean?

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3525. nepho
nhjw nepho nay'-fo

of uncertain affinity: to abstain from wine (keep sober), i.e. (figuratively) be discreet:--be sober, watch.

We know that Paul was speaking of abstaining from wine in these verses because of the contrast; i.e., drunken/sober, day, night. 

Total abstinence was indeed taught by the Apostle Paul.

[The Glory Land]

Apparently so.  This reminds me of why I left the Baptist church I grew up in. There was simply no room in the church for people who had a different interpretation of the Bible. A friend of mine was called in and demanded that he stop asking theological questions by the deacons and pastors.  He and I left about the same time.  Difference between him and I was that he asked the questions out loud, and then was called before the deacon board for doing so.  Sounds like a very works based salvation to me.

 

Anyway, my current church has been a liberating experience.  Believers of all backgrounds worshiping God.  There is room for differences and we can all get along.  I am happy to have found a place where I can worship God, and discuss questions and struggles openly.  

 

My point in discussing this is to simply say there are believers who enjoy a bit of wine, an those that do not.  We can all get along even though our consciences are different on that point provided that we respect one another.  I respect the conscience of each person here and would not try to change that, and hope most here would have the same respect for me.  Though I do feel a few here do not respect my thoughts on the issue.  

 

 

I will have a cup of wine with you my friend, but I am not sure what you did leaving the faith was the right thing. Leaving the Baptist church or doctrine. Be careful my friend, you’re walking on strange grounds, I hope it’s not one of those non denomination community churches. Churches that say we all can get along are open to anything; gay marriages are welcome here first. Liberal churches are not the way to go. You cannot be a Christian and be a party person, this will not mix well and you will go downhill. Be careful and think about coming back, now while you can.

 

Your Bro. in Christ. E Morales with the glory land.

[robmac68]

Paul instructed abstinence in his epistle to the Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

The word "sober" in those two verses is translated from the Greek word "nepho."  What does "nepho" mean?

Strong's Greek Dictionary
3525. nepho
nhjw nepho nay'-fo

of uncertain affinity: to abstain from wine (keep sober), i.e. (figuratively) be discreet:--be sober, watch.

We know that Paul was speaking of abstaining from wine in these verses because of the contrast; i.e., drunken/sober, day, night. 

Total abstinence was indeed taught by the Apostle Paul.

I love the way you worded this.  You said "Paul instructed"....sounds so much better than saying the Bible says if you have a sip of wine, you sinned.  Now I am not advocating sugar coating sin.  The Bible is very clear on alot of sins and we should call sin, sin.  But in those areas the Bible is not clear, i.e. a small amount of wine, CCM, going to the beach, we should be careful how to teach the brethern. 

 

Jesus said to forsake all and follow me.  If I turn around and say if you own a home and have a place to lay your head, you have not forsaken all and therefore the Bible is very clear you are sinning,  Would you agree with that statement?  Should I preach a sermon on home ownership being a sin?  Call sin, sin...in areas we are to grow and abstain from stuff that could be harmful, teach it and instruct.  Don't slap a sin sticker on it.