Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I wouldn't entertain those doctrines for a minute, since the Word of God doesn't support them either.

[robmac68]

I wouldn't entertain those doctrines for a minute, since the Word of God doesn't support them either.

...and I wouldn't expect you to.  You believe the Word of God doesn't support them, you have to stick with the Word of God...no matter how crazy I think a few of your beliefs are...

 

but gettin' back to the topic...I don't believe Christians who drink wine means that they really are not Christians and not saved.  I believe those Christians that drink wine or beer are not focused on Spiritual maturity as much as they should be, but wine is not the unpardonable sin, especially since I won't label as sin.

[The Glory Land]

...and I wouldn't expect you to.  You believe the Word of God doesn't support them, you have to stick with the Word of God...no matter how crazy I think a few of your beliefs are...

 

but gettin' back to the topic...I don't believe Christians who drink wine means that they really are not Christians and not saved.  I believe those Christians that drink wine or beer are not focused on Spiritual maturity as much as they should be, but wine is not the unpardonable sin, especially since I won't label as sin.

 

 

People are always trying to add what we can do and what we can not do to be a christian, works,"  I agree with you and do not support that a christian should drink to feel good.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

The Bible says "Let us be sober" in contrast to "those that are drunken."

It illustrates this with the contrast between "day" and "night."

Sorry TGL, but I don't see your stance supported by Scripture.

[The Glory Land]

Almost on page 10.......  Free KJ Bible.

[The Glory Land]

The Bible says "Let us be sober" in contrast to "those that are drunken."

It illustrates this with the contrast between "day" and "night."

Sorry TGL, but I don't see your stance supported by Scripture.

 

Both ways, that why I can not say to a person, that has a cup of wine, your lost.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

1 Peter 4:1-6 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

An interesting passage.  The word "banquetings" is translated from the Greek word "potos" and simply means "drinking".

Barnes' states:  Banquetings. The word here used (potoV) occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It means properly drinking; an act of drinking; then a drinking bout; drinking together. The thing forbidden by it is an assembling together for the purpose of drinking. There is nothing in this word referring to eating, or to banqueting, as the term is now commonly employed. The idea in the passage is, that it is improper for Christians to meet together for the purpose of drinking--as wine, toasts, etc. The prohibition would apply to all those assemblages where this is understood to be the main object. It would forbid, therefore, an attendance on all those celebrations in which drinking toasts is understood to be an essential part of the festivities, and all those where hilarity and joyfulness are sought to be produced by the intoxicating bowl. Such are not proper places for Christians.


Interesting.  So for KoB to invite someone over to his house for a beer is what the 17th Century A.D. translators called "banquetings" and is a no-no because it is what the lost Gentiles do and not something for Christians.

 

[TheSword]

I used to believe the Scriptures taught complete abstinence...I was wrong then, but I know better now.

 

You must not have noticed my outline in post #135 where I showed how Scripture unequivocally teaches abstinance. Can you show me where I'm wrong?

[no name joe]

Many Pharisees in Jesus time studied the OT law, parsed it, interpreted it, etc. all out of good intentions.  Out of that grew rules that were not found in the OT law.  The OT Law says not to work on the Sabbath.  The PHarisees defined what work was out of their inordinate study of the language used and experience.  

 

Many people today do the same thing.  There are very good reasons to abstain from alcohol (look at experience of people).  However, total abstention from alcohol is found NOWHERE in the Bible.  Why would the Nazerites take a special vow not to drink if the understanding was that it was wrong?  I see many people doing the same thing the Pharisees did, and I know it is out of good intentions, but it seems misguided to me.

 

The much better way to argue that a Christian should not drink alcohol than saying it is a sin.  The stronger argument that is actually supported by Scripture and logic is that it is not a sin, but can cause harm to people and cause people to stumble, so should not be used at all.

 

Anyway, I've said enough here.  I am tired of arguing over something that no one will change minds over.  Again, it seems a point that people can disagree.  It is a nonessential point for Christianity.  We should be united in Christ whether we partake or abstain from wine in moderation.

[The Glory Land]

Many Pharisees in Jesus time studied the OT law, parsed it, interpreted it, etc. all out of good intentions.  Out of that grew rules that were not found in the OT law.  The OT Law says not to work on the Sabbath.  The PHarisees defined what work was out of their inordinate study of the language used and experience.  

 

Many people today do the same thing.  There are very good reasons to abstain from alcohol (look at experience of people).  However, total abstention from alcohol is found NOWHERE in the Bible.  Why would the Nazerites take a special vow not to drink if the understanding was that it was wrong?  I see many people doing the same thing the Pharisees did, and I know it is out of good intentions, but it seems misguided to me.

 

The much better way to argue that a Christian should not drink alcohol than saying it is a sin.  The stronger argument that is actually supported by Scripture and logic is that it is not a sin, but can cause harm to people and cause people to stumble, so should not be used at all.

 

Anyway, I've said enough here.  I am tired of arguing over something that no one will change minds over.  Again, it seems a point that people can disagree.  It is a nonessential point for Christianity.  We should be united in Christ whether we partake or abstain from wine in moderation.

 

 

 

 

        

[TheSword]

Many Pharisees in Jesus time studied the OT law, parsed it, interpreted it, etc. all out of good intentions.  Out of that grew rules that were not found in the OT law.  The OT Law says not to work on the Sabbath.  The PHarisees defined what work was out of their inordinate study of the language used and experience.  

 

Many people today do the same thing.  There are very good reasons to abstain from alcohol (look at experience of people).  However, total abstention from alcohol is found NOWHERE in the Bible.  Why would the Nazerites take a special vow not to drink if the understanding was that it was wrong?  I see many people doing the same thing the Pharisees did, and I know it is out of good intentions, but it seems misguided to me.

 

The much better way to argue that a Christian should not drink alcohol than saying it is a sin.  The stronger argument that is actually supported by Scripture and logic is that it is not a sin, but can cause harm to people and cause people to stumble, so should not be used at all.

 

Anyway, I've said enough here.  I am tired of arguing over something that no one will change minds over.  Again, it seems a point that people can disagree.  It is a nonessential point for Christianity.  We should be united in Christ whether we partake or abstain from wine in moderation.

 

At the risk of belaboring the point (and certainly not trying to be contentious), but wouldn't this logic lead to a denial of any other behavioral limitation that is not explicitly stated in Scripture such as swearing, immodest dress, drug use (marijuana, cocaine, etc), and monogomy or the denial of any doctrine that is not explicitly spelled out such as the Trinity? Even though things are not explicitly stated they are clear when bounded by Biblical principle right?

 

I certainly agree that this is not a salvation issue and certainly whether one drinks or not is not a criteria for getting into heaven; however, it is absolutely a discipleship issue in my opinion.

[no name joe]

At the risk of belaboring the point (and certainly not trying to be contentious), but wouldn't this logic lead to a denial of any other behavioral limitation that is not explicitly stated in Scripture such as swearing, immodest dress, drug use (marijuana, cocaine, etc), and monogomy or the denial of any doctrine that is not explicitly spelled out such as the Trinity? Even though things are not explicitly stated they are clear when bounded by Biblical principle right?

 

I certainly agree that this is not a salvation issue and certainly whether one drinks or not is not a criteria for getting into heaven; however, it is absolutely a discipleship issue in my opinion.

 

No, it wouldn't.  I think the underlying principals of Scripture regarding behavior is the golden rule, "Love the Lord your God with all of your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself."  All rules can be boiled down to this.  If an action causes harm to others, you are not loving your neighbor.  Drinking in moderation by the average person causes no one any harm.  If a person drinks to the point where it is harmful to himself or others, then it becomes sin (the person is drunk, and does not have control).  It violates the Golden Rule.

 

Swearing is using harsh language in a manner to cause harm to someone else.  That is wrong and causes harm.  So does drug use.

 

If an action causes no harm, and the Scripture is not clear, then each believer should act in accordance with his or her own conscience.  Eating meat sacrificed to idols was such an issue in Paul's day.   Drinking in moderation may be such an issue today.  

[TheSword]

No, it wouldn't.  I think the underlying principals of Scripture regarding behavior is the golden rule, "Love the Lord your God with all of your heart soul and mind, and love your neighbor as yourself."  All rules can be boiled down to this.  If an action causes harm to others, you are not loving your neighbor.  Drinking in moderation by the average person causes no one any harm.  If a person drinks to the point where it is harmful to himself or others, then it becomes sin (the person is drunk, and does not have control).  It violates the Golden Rule.

 

Swearing is using harsh language in a manner to cause harm to someone else.  That is wrong and causes harm.  So does drug use.

 

If an action causes no harm, and the Scripture is not clear, then each believer should act in accordance with his or her own conscience.  Eating meat sacrificed to idols was such an issue in Paul's day.   Drinking in moderation may be such an issue today.  

 

Hmmm...that's an interesting take with no actual Scripture to support your position (at least none that you've stated aside from the loose quote of Matt 22:37-40 and soft reference to 1 Cor 8). Here's a question though. If you are loving the Lord your God with all of your heart, soul, and mind, wouldn't it be more important discern His mind on what He does and does not want His people to do and abide by that as opposed to personal preferences (yours or others)? If the first and great commandment is to love God with all of our heart, soul, and mind then putting away all things contrary to His nature and instruction is the essence of that action is it not? Since all of the Law and prophets hang on this first and great commandment, wouldn't God's consistent rebuke of a behavior be enough for us to abstain from it out of love for Him?

 

I suppose my overarching point is that God's mind on drinking is clear and as followers of Him we should be abstaining from it out of love for Him and those we may help lead to Him, and not necessarily out of dogmatic church rule (though I think church rules on the issue stem from this principle more often than not). If you want to drink in moderation, that's perfectly fine and won't affect your salvation one iota. I do, however, think that it would be limiting your spiritual growth and ability to be greatly used of God, which should be greatest our desire if we are loving Him with all of our heart, soul, and mind. That's my opinion anyway.

[swathdiver]

I can't for reasons of doctrine leave the Baptist denomination.......

 

I am so glad that I do not belong to ANY denomination, just one of Jesus Christ's local New Testament Churches!  It's no accident that it calls itself an Independent, Fundamental, Soul-Winning, Baptist Church!  Can I get an AMEN???      

[JerryNumbers]

Actually, Jerry, I don't know.  I quoted a couple commentaries and that was a quote from John Gill.  I posted his more for what he added after the underlined quote from the Syriac version. 

 

Anyway, I asked 2 questions in that posting.  Do you have an answer for either?  SFiC stated earlier that the 2 verses in Timothy have to do with unfirmented wine.  How is a person given to unfirmented wine?  If it is unfirmented, why is a pastor told not to drink it at all and deacons should not drink much of it? 

 

Getting back to last part of your question you asked what these versions have to do with anything if we have God's true Word...in the King James Bible?  If you go back through and read most the postings on this subject, I think alot believe if we don't have a websters 1828 dictionary, someone trained in Greek, a Strongs Concordance, and articles or commentaries to go along with the King James Bible, then we are short changed.   I believe the KJV can stand alone, but then, I believe wine is wine so I must be short changed.

 

One thing for sure, a Websters dictionary  from 1828 will give a much closer & better definition to the words in the KJ Bible than a modern day dictionary will. My SwordSearcher has one.

 

I have not seen anyone under this topic say that one has to read Greek to understand the KJ Bible.

 

As for the answers, they've been posted many times under this topic and very clearly so just go back reading all of the post & you will have the 2 answers you ask for. Its so sad that so  many lets the world have so much influence on them when it comes to understanding what God would have us to do.

 

Ro 12:1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Ro 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

These verses ought to keep a Christians from letting alcoholic beverages of any kind from passing across their lips.

 

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

 

1Th 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

 

Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

 

2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

 

1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

1Co 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:

 

1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

 

Ro 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 

And bother, when you drink alcoholic beverages your being a stumblingblock.

 

Ro 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

 

That is correct, none of us live unto our self, everything we do has an effect on our life & everyone around us & its either positive or negative, & the Christian consuming alcoholic beverages metes out a very strong negative effect on everyone. Especially when they so strongly defend their use of alcoholic beverages.