Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

[Heir of Salvation]

So we are at the point now that if someone sips some wine they are unsaved? Really? 

Of course....so what's new?  I'm surprised it took until page six, actually.  When I first read this thread I predicted anyone who did  not insert the man-made doctrine of tee-totallism into the Bible would be consigned to hell by page 4...I'm quite impressed.  I.F.B's are notorious for such things.  There is a certain sub-set of Christians who do this all the time, unfortunately...I daresay it is more common in I.F.B. circles than anywhere else. Someone disagrees with them on something....they consign them to hell.  It's standard M.O. for many.  Frankly...I think with a select few it's more a case of wishful thinking than an honestly held belief. This sort rails against the Papacy while failing to realize that their senior Pastors are often miniature little Popes in their own local Assemblies.  This sort of I.F.B. doesn't abide honest questions or peaceable disagreement.  Disagree with them on one issue, and they excommunicate...happens all the time.  This is, of course, not  EVERY   I.F.B. by any means (been to I.F.B. churches for years, and still do) but this sort is everywhere. 

 

The viciousness with which Rob and KoB have been treated by some on this thread is all too common.   

 

I'd take a drunk KoB (not saying he is) before some of the angry, prideful self-righteous posters you sometimes get on Baptist Forums.  Drunks are aware of their sins, Pharisees, almost never.   I'd far rather be a drunk than a self-righteous Pharisee.......and yes, some I.F.B's  are indeed Pharisees.

 

Tee-totalism is un-Scriptural.  It is a man-made invention, and frankly a remarkably myopic and uniquely modern one at that.

[Heir of Salvation]

Apparently so.  This reminds me of why I left the Baptist church I grew up in. There was simply no room in the church for people who had a different interpretation of the Bible. A friend of mine was called in and demanded that he stop asking theological questions by the deacons and pastors.  He and I left about the same time.  Difference between him and I was that he asked the questions out loud, and then was called before the deacon board for doing so.  Sounds like a very works based salvation to me.

Nailed it.  Wish you could find a Baptist Church though which is not like this, but, unfortunately...it's all too common.  I'd hope you can find a Baptist Church which is not like the one you were in.......they're out there.  I can't for reasons of doctrine leave the Baptist denomination.......but, I know it can be tempting for someone in the situation you found yourself in.  I'd hope you can renew the search and find a Baptist Congregation with loving Shepherds instead of a Supreme Junta like so many of them are.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Of course....so what's new?  I'm surprised it took until page six, actually.  When I first read this thread I predicted anyone who did  not insert the man-made doctrine of tee-totallism into the Bible would be consigned to hell by page 4...I'm quite impressed.  I.F.B's are notorious for such things.  There is a certain sub-set of Christians who do this all the time, unfortunately...I daresay it is more common in I.F.B. circles than anywhere else. Someone disagrees with them on something....they consign them to hell.  It's standard M.O. for many.  Frankly...I think with a select few it's more a case of wishful thinking than an honestly held belief. This sort rails against the Papacy while failing to realize that their senior Pastors are often miniature little Popes in their own local Assemblies.  This sort of I.F.B. doesn't abide honest questions or peaceable disagreement.  Disagree with them on one issue, and they excommunicate...happens all the time.  This is, of course, not  EVERY   I.F.B. by any means (been to I.F.B. churches for years, and still do) but this sort is everywhere. 

 

The viciousness with which Rob and KoB have been treated by some on this thread is all too common.   

 

I'd take a drunk KoB (not saying he is) before some of the angry, prideful self-righteous posters you sometimes get on Baptist Forums.  Drunks are aware of their sins, Pharisees, almost never.   I'd far rather be a drunk than a self-righteous Pharisee.......and yes, some I.F.B's  are indeed Pharisees.

 

Tee-totalism is un-Scriptural.  It is a man-made invention, and frankly a remarkably myopic and uniquely modern one at that.

You bear false witness.  we are not angry, prideful self-righteous posters.  We stand for and preach what the Bible clearly says concerning alcoholic beverages.

Paul taught abstinence.  Jesus taught it.  Solomon taught it. 

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it is not there.  Perhaps you just aren't wanting to see it?

[Heir of Salvation]

You bear false witness.  we are not angry, prideful self-righteous posters.  We stand for and preach what the Bible clearly says concerning alcoholic beverages.

No, I'm not.  Who says that post was about YOU? 

Who is "WE"?

I am not identifying anyone in particular, nor all people who believe the Scriptures teach total abstinence...that simply makes one wrong...not "self-righteous".  I spoke of an ethereal sub-set of Christians who are common in I.F.B. circles...now stop being so quick with the greased "bear false witness" canard....no one was talking about YOU!

[Heir of Salvation]

Paul taught abstinence.  Jesus taught it.  Solomon taught it. 

No, they didn't....but, you used to believe they taught tithing too didn't you?  So did I, you were mistaken then, but you know better now.

 

I used to believe the Scriptures taught complete abstinence...I was wrong then, but I know better now.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Actually, you are wrong now.  Scriptures clearly teach abstinence, though one who wants to justify sin will never see it.

[Heir of Salvation]

Actually, you are wrong now.  Scriptures clearly teach abstinence, though one who wants to justify sin will never see it.

Argue in circles much??

 

Frankly...I wish I DID believe in total abstinence...because I amn an I.F.B. and  accusatory railings such as this gem you posted are ever so common.  It would be ever so much easier to simply join the crowd and accuse anyone who doesn't believe as I do of being a wicked sinner blah blah blah....it would be MUCH easier to do that than state the simple truth that total abstinence is un-Scriptural...How much easier would it be for KoB to join the Peanut Gallery than to endure self-righteous accusatory posts such as this one?  Because this, post, sir....does indeed fit the bill.   That's just "witness" and it ain't false.

 

How often does someone simply accuse you of "justifying sin" because you stand against the false doctrine of tithing??? Do you like it when they do that?  This is what you are doing now.

[JerryNumbers]

No, I'm not.  Who says that post was about YOU? 

Who is "WE"?

I am not identifying anyone in particular, nor all people who believe the Scriptures teach total abstinence...that simply makes one wrong...not "self-righteous".  I spoke of an ethereal sub-set of Christians who are common in I.F.B. circles...now stop being so quick with the greased "bear false witness" canard....no one was talking about YOU!

 

As Standing stated, your wrong, & your very intolerant of those who disagree with you with a love of putting them down & were you feel they belong, below you.

[Heir of Salvation]

As Standing stated, your wrong, & your very intolerant of those who disagree with you with a love of putting them down & were you feel they belong, below you.

Pot...meet Mr. Kettle.

But, I don't question their salvation for it....and that is unique to the tee-totallers on this thread.  Frankly, I'm flabbergasted that it isn't against the rules of the forum...but, what can you do.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

1 Corinthians 6:9 (KJV) 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Corinthians 6:10 (KJV) 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV) 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Apparently, HoS doesn't understand what "but ye are washed" means.

Tell me, HoS, when you take a shower, do you wash all of the dirt you see off? Or do you decide to leave a little on your body and get out of the tub only 98% clean?

What makes you think God would take alcohol away from a drunkard and leave room for a little in his or her life? Can an adulterer cheat a little? An extortioner make minor threats? Seffeminate wear only the tops of the opposite gender's clothing?

Why do you think clean cannot mean clean?

When God washes a drunk, a prostitute, a drug addict, a thief, etc., He washes completely.  He does not tell them they can drink a little, sleep around a little, smoke a little, steal a little.  No, He cleanses completely.

But why clean a drunkard completely if it is OK to drink in moderation?  Sadly, many still need to go to God to get that dirt called alcohol washed from their minds and hearts... even the moderation advocates.

As was pointed out earlier, one ounce of alcohol affects one's judgment and reflexes.  You cannot convince me that that is not a level of drunkenness no matter how much you try, HoS.

I know it is drunkenness and God knows it is drunkenness.  You can continue to deny it, but you are only fooling yourself and the gullible.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

From Centers for Disease Control and Prevention:

What does moderate drinking mean?
According to the Dietary Guidelines for Americans,¹ moderate alcohol consumption is defined as having up to 1 drink per day for women and up to 2 drinks per day for men. This definition is referring to the amount consumed on any single day and is not intended as an average over several days. The Dietary Guidelines also state that it is not recommended that anyone begin drinking or drink more frequently on the basis of potential health benefits because moderate alcohol intake also is associated with increased risk of breast cancer, violence, drowning, and injuries from falls and motor vehicle crashes.

And to think that professing Christians would defend the moderate drinking of alcohol!  Shame, shame!

What does it mean to be above the legal limit for drinking?
The legal limit for drinking is the alcohol level above which an individual is subject to legal penalties (e.g., arrest or loss of a driver's license).
 

• Legal limits are measured using either a blood alcohol test or a breathalyzer.
• Legal limits are typically defined by state law, and may vary based on individual characteristics, such as age and occupation.

All states in the United States have adopted 0.08% (80 mg/dL) as the legal limit for operating a motor vehicle for drivers aged 21 years or older. However, drivers younger than 21 are not allowed to operate a motor vehicle with any level of alcohol in their system.

Note: Legal limits do not define a level below which it is safe to operate a vehicle or engage in some other activity. Impairment due to alcohol use begins to occur at levels well below the legal limit.

Impairment begins well below the legal limit.  Imagine that! 

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Blood Alcohol Concentration Changes in Feelings and Personality Brain Regions Affected Impaired Activities (continuum) 0.01–0.05 Relaxation
Sense of well being
Loss of inhibition Cerebral cortex

Alertness

Judgment

Coordination
(especially fine motor skills)

Visual tracking

Reasoning and depth perception

Inappropriate social behavior
(e.g., obnoxiousness)

Slurred speech

Lack of balance

Loss of temperature regulation

Loss of bladder control

Difficulty breathing

Slowed heart rate

0.06–0.10 Pleasure
Numbness of feelings
Nausea, Sleepiness
Emotional arousal Cerebral cortex +
forebrain 0.11–0.20 Mood swings
Anger
Sadness
Mania Cerebral cortex +
forebrain +
cerebellum 0.21–0.30 Aggression
Reduced sensations
Depression
Stupor Cerebral cortex +
forebrain +
cerebellum +
brain stem 0.31–0.40 Unconsciousness
Death possible
Coma Entire brain 0.41 and greater Death   Source: Advisory committee and NIAAA scientists.

An interesting little chart showing how alcohol affects the body at different stages.
A 225 pound man would have a 0.01% BAC after just one beer over a half hour period of time. (truth be known, they probably would drink it in 15 minutes or less while it is cold.  If he consumed that beer in 15 minutes, his BAC would be 0.14%)

Alertness, Judgment & Coordination are affected with just that one beer.  Yet, some don't realize the beer has mocked them and deceived them into believing it has no effect on them. 

[robmac68]

What does the Syriac version & Arabic version got to do with it when we have God's true Word to mankind in the King James Bible? 

Actually, Jerry, I don't know.  I quoted a couple commentaries and that was a quote from John Gill.  I posted his more for what he added after the underlined quote from the Syriac version. 

 

Anyway, I asked 2 questions in that posting.  Do you have an answer for either?  SFiC stated earlier that the 2 verses in Timothy have to do with unfirmented wine.  How is a person given to unfirmented wine?  If it is unfirmented, why is a pastor told not to drink it at all and deacons should not drink much of it? 

 

Getting back to last part of your question you asked what these versions have to do with anything if we have God's true Word...in the King James Bible?  If you go back through and read most the postings on this subject, I think alot believe if we don't have a websters 1828 dictionary, someone trained in Greek, a Strongs Concordance, and articles or commentaries to go along with the King James Bible, then we are short changed.   I believe the KJV can stand alone, but then, I believe wine is wine so I must be short changed.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

and confused.

[robmac68]

and confused.

you should have figured this out about me when you found I out believe aborted babies go to heaven, I tithe, and I believe pastors should receive a paycheck.