Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

The Glory Land

Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

Recommended Posts

Um, what table are you talking about?  If you are talking about in Heaven, there won't be intoxicating beverage there, because, for starters yeast (leaven) is a picture of sin and there is no sin in Heaven...Secondly, God said it's not wise, therefore He wouldn't provide it.  

 

At other tables here on earth, I will refuse it.  If I'm even at a table where it's served.  Have been (unwillingly or unknowingly) and have done.  

 

Here on Earth, what is the big deal about having a cup of Wine, by not are you a better Christian? Don't take your cold Medicine, it may have more alcohol than the Wine.

Edited by The Glory Land

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then why did the drunkards say, you saved the best for last, does the bible say they were drunk?

Where does the text say drunkards said that? 

Alcohol deadens taste buds.  Had the governor been drunk (as ye suppose) he would not have been able to distinguish the quality of the wine.  (this, by the way, proves that it could not have been an alcoholic wine that was provided at the wedding feast.  The governor had the ability to distinguish the taste between good and bad)

And that which Jesus served was not alcoholic either.

It is clear, when studying John 2:1-11, that the people of Jesus' day did not rate their wine "good" or "best" based on alcoholic content, but rather on flavor... on taste.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here on Earth, what is the big deal about having a cup of Wine, by not are you a better Christian? Don't take your cold Medicine, it may have more alcohol than the Wine.

I have always thought that this is what the Bible was referring to when it says "take A LITTLE wine for thy stomach's sake..."

Using A LITTLE for medicinal purposes is far different than drinking "moderately" or "socially."

 

Every study that I have read that drinking alcoholic wine moderately does NOT help a person's health - they would have to drink a whole bottle of wine to get any health benefits, and by then the alcoholic part of the wine would do more than counter-balance any medicinal value.  These same studies say quite clearly that GRAPE JUICE is very good for your heart health, but grape WINE is NOT

BUT

Mouthwash has alcohol in it, some cold medicines (like Nyquil) have alcohol in them (although now you can get the non-alcoholic versions of these), and many alternative medicines are made of herbal tinctures, which is made by soaking an herb in an alcohol solution.  Of course, the herbal tinctures are to be taken by the DROP, not by the bottle (like maybe, 10 drops diluted in 2-3 oz. of juice).  So, when the Bible says "a LITTLE," it really means "a little."

 

In Christ,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why Rob are you applying modern definitions to a word that remained essentially unchanged until about sixty years ago?  How can you rightly divide the Scriptures if you don't know what the words mean and cannot see the contexts?

 

Here's some reading material:

 

Page 20 here:

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/10dectbc.pdf

 

Page 5 on this one (you might like the front page article too):

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/11febtbc.pdf

 

Finally, Page 3 here:

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/96martbc.pdf

 

Hi SD. I'm intrigued by what you've said about the English word 'wine' formerly meaning both fermented and unfermented drink. Can you point me in the direction of more info about that? I've read those three links you've given and only one of them (well two are sort of the same article) mentions this etymology but it doesn't give any sources. You also mentioned a 19th century American dictionary, but I'm not sure that's the place to go to find out how English people were using the word in the 17th. Are there any other references you know of, before I go away and start looking?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi SD. I'm intrigued by what you've said about the English word 'wine' formerly meaning both fermented and unfermented drink. Can you point me in the direction of more info about that? I've read those three links you've given and only one of them (well two are sort of the same article) mentions this etymology but it doesn't give any sources. You also mentioned a 19th century American dictionary, but I'm not sure that's the place to go to find out how English people were using the word in the 17th. Are there any other references you know of, before I go away and start looking?

Well, you could simply do a word study of "wine" in the KJV Bible! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many Christians enjoy wine or other alcoholic drinks.  Many choose to abstain.  This is one of those areas where there are good reasons not to partake, but it is not sinful.  We are not talking about drinking to excess and abusing alcohol which is clearly sinful.  

 

This is simply an issue that some believe it is not wise.  Others believe it is wrong.  Others believe there is nothing wrong with it.

 

This is not an issue to divide over.  It is not an issue to cause disunity. If one believer, such as myself, enjoys a drink in the privacy of my home or with some friends, it has no impact on anyone.  Just like a choice of someone else to abstain does not have any impact on me.  

This is a trivial issue, to me.  One in which each believer should follow his or her own conscience.  

 

The principals that are clear in the Bible are:

1) Do not get drunk.  Drinking to excess is foolish and will lead to harmful consequences.

2) Do not cause someone to stumble.  So I will not offer a beer to someone I know to be an alcoholic.  That would not be right.  I would not offer wine to someone I know does not drink.  I would abstain while I was round them out of respect for their beliefs.  However, that does not mean I should abstain altogether.  The street goes two way.  I expect others to respect my beliefs and decision on the issue as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's a great article by the late Dr. Bruce Lackey (from the Way of LIfe website):

 

DID JESUS MAKE ALCOHOLIC WINE?

 

Republished August 23, 2005 (first published via the FBIS January 22, 1998) (Fundamental Baptist Information Service, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061, 866-295-4143, fbns@wayoflife.org; for instructions about subscribing and unsubscribing or changing addresses, see the information paragraph at the end of the article) -

The following article is by the late Bruce Lackey:


SOME INTRODUCTORY BIBLE FACTS ABOUT WINE:

1. The word wine in the Bible is a generic term; sometimes it means grape juice; sometimes it means alcoholic beverages. The following verses prove that the word “wine” can mean fresh grape juice, the fruit of the vine: Deuteronomy 11:14; 2 Chronicles 31:5; Nehemiah 13:15; Proverbs 3:10; Isaiah 16:10; 65:8; 1 Timothy 5:23.

2. The context will always show when “wine” refers to alcoholic beverages. In such cases, God discusses the bad effects of it and warns against it. An example would be Genesis 9, Noah’s experience after the Flood. Verse 21, “and he drank of the wine, and was drunken,” clearly refers to alcoholic beverage. Proverbs 20:1 speaks of the same thing when it warns us, “Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging; and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.” Alcoholic wine is deceptive; but how? In the very way that people are advocating today, by saying that drinking a little bit will not hurt. Everyone admits that drinking too much is bad; even the liquor companies tell us not to drive and drink, but they insist that a small amount is all right. However, that is the very thing that is deceptive. Who knows how little to drink? Experts tell us that each person is different. It takes an ounce to affect one, while more is necessary for another. The same person will react to alcohol differently, depending on the amount of food he has had, among other things. So, the idea that “a little bit won’t hurt” is deceptive, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise!

Proverbs 23:30-31 refers to alcoholic wine, because it tells us in the previous verse that those who drink it have woe, sorrow, contentions, babbling, wounds without cause, and redness of eyes. What a graphic description of those who “tarry long” at alcoholism. Verses 32-35 continue the same description; context always makes it clear when alcohol is meant.

 

Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

Edited by LindaR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi SD. I'm intrigued by what you've said about the English word 'wine' formerly meaning both fermented and unfermented drink. Can you point me in the direction of more info about that? I've read those three links you've given and only one of them (well two are sort of the same article) mentions this etymology but it doesn't give any sources. You also mentioned a 19th century American dictionary, but I'm not sure that's the place to go to find out how English people were using the word in the 17th. Are there any other references you know of, before I go away and start looking?

This site will allow you to download and watch a powerpoint presentation that gives several dictionaries (even ancient) to describe wine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Goodness!  Don't have a conniption fit over this!

Does every word in our KJV Bible mean the same exact thing, every single time it is used?

Absolutely not.

 

But everyone knows some words have more than one meaning and the example you used--'meat'--is precisely one of those words. Every dictionary has 'food more generally' listed as an archaic meaning of the word 'meat'. We even use that meaning a bit today, e.g. mincemeat.

 

But that doesn't mean we can say that all words therefore have more than one meaning, and that 'wine' necessarily does. I'd be really interested in hearing evidence that in 17th century England the word 'wine' was taken to mean 'grape juice' in addition to the meaning it has today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But everyone knows some words have more than one meaning and the example you used--'meat'--is precisely one of those words. Every dictionary has 'food more generally' listed as an archaic meaning of the word 'meat'. We even use that meaning a bit today, e.g. mincemeat.

 

But that doesn't mean we can say that all words therefore have more than one meaning, and that 'wine' necessarily does. I'd be really interested in hearing evidence that in 17th century England the word 'wine' was taken to mean 'grape juice' in addition to the meaning it has today.

I tried to find an early edition Oxford Dictionary -- but none seem to be available online.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Many Christians enjoy wine or other alcoholic drinks.  Many choose to abstain.  This is one of those areas where there are good reasons not to partake, but it is not sinful.  We are not talking about drinking to excess and abusing alcohol which is clearly sinful.  

 

This is simply an issue that some believe it is not wise.  Others believe it is wrong.  Others believe there is nothing wrong with it.

 

This is not an issue to divide over.  It is not an issue to cause disunity. If one believer, such as myself, enjoys a drink in the privacy of my home or with some friends, it has no impact on anyone.  Just like a choice of someone else to abstain does not have any impact on me.  

This is a trivial issue, to me.  One in which each believer should follow his or her own conscience.  

 

The principals that are clear in the Bible are:

1) Do not get drunk.  Drinking to excess is foolish and will lead to harmful consequences.

2) Do not cause someone to stumble.  So I will not offer a beer to someone I know to be an alcoholic.  That would not be right.  I would not offer wine to someone I know does not drink.  I would abstain while I was round them out of respect for their beliefs.  However, that does not mean I should abstain altogether.  The street goes two way.  I expect others to respect my beliefs and decision on the issue as well. 

Brother, your response here demonstrates your ignorance of the subject from a Biblical viewpoint.  The Bible is clear for those who are willing to let it guide them....

 

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

 

This verse says we are not even supposed to LOOK at it, let alone DRINK it!

 

In Christ,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But everyone knows some words have more than one meaning and the example you used--'meat'--is precisely one of those words. Every dictionary has 'food more generally' listed as an archaic meaning of the word 'meat'. We even use that meaning a bit today, e.g. mincemeat.

 

But that doesn't mean we can say that all words therefore have more than one meaning, and that 'wine' necessarily does. I'd be really interested in hearing evidence that in 17th century England the word 'wine' was taken to mean 'grape juice' in addition to the meaning it has today.

I listed them in that same post....did you miss that part of the post?  I gave several verses all with different meanings of the word "wine." 

 

I don't understand what the difficulty is....get a concordance, or do a word search on your Bible software, and start going through the Bible looking at each occurrence of the word "wine."  Simple!

Edited by Steve Schwenke

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, you could simply do a word study of "wine" in the KJV Bible! ;)

 

The problem with that approach is that the translators didn't make up the English language for the purposes of producing the AV. On the contrary, they translated the Bible into English for those who were already speaking English. So if people at the time used the word 'table' to mean a four-legged piece of furniture people ate off of, the translators used that already-existing word to communicate the same thing. I appreciate there are words, like 'love' and 'hate' for example, that aren't so easily defined and for which a word study in the Bible is instructive. But the word 'wine' is a very simple English word, or at least I thought it was!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an appropriate verse for this conversation and for this generation:

 

Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem with that approach is that the translators didn't make up the English language for the purposes of producing the AV. On the contrary, they translated the Bible into English for those who were already speaking English. So if people at the time used the word 'table' to mean a four-legged piece of furniture people ate off of, the translators used that already-existing word to communicate the same thing. I appreciate there are words, like 'love' and 'hate' for example, that aren't so easily defined and for which a word study in the Bible is instructive. But the word 'wine' is a very simple English word, or at least I thought it was!

Do the word study - you won't be disappointed. 

The Bible defines itself.  Dictionaries are helpful in clarifying a precise definition, but they are not always sufficient.  They might give us insight and help us start down the right path, but they are not always definitive when it comes to the Biblical definition of a word.

The KJV was put together supernaturally by our Lord Himself.  The only way to get to the bottom of a subject that is as controversial as this one is to do an exhaustive word study from the Bible itself.  It will be well worth your time.

 

In Christ,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brother, your response here demonstrates your ignorance of the subject from a Biblical viewpoint.  The Bible is clear for those who are willing to let it guide them....

 

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

 

This verse says we are not even supposed to LOOK at it, let alone DRINK it!

 

In Christ,

 

In that case, I'll just have a beer.  ;-)  CHEERS!

Edited by kindofblue1977

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I listed them in that same post....did you miss that part of the post?  I gave several verses all with different meanings of the word "wine." 

 

I don't understand what the difficulty is....get a concordance, or do a word search on your Bible software, and start going through the Bible looking at each occurrence of the word "wine."  Simple!

 

One of them doesn't count because it is a figurative use whereas we are talking about literal meanings. In fact, for a word to be used figuratively it must be understood what it means literally. As for 1 Samuel 25:18, yes it does appear that the word wine is being used in a different way there.

 

Don't think I'm saying I don't know how to go away and read. But we're having a discussion here aren't we? And a discussion is where people share what they know. Otherwise we could just shut down this forum and replace with a URL to the AV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In that case, I'll just have a beer.  ;-)  CHEERS!

Beer falls under the category of "strong drink" in the Bible....

 

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beer falls under the category of "strong drink" in the Bible....

 

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

Beer is not a strong drink.  It's alcohol content ranges from 4-8% typically.  Wine is around 12-14%.  Strong drink like bourbon or vodka is way higher than wine.  So beer is really a weak drink.

 

The principal is not to drink to excess and become drunk. In the NT, Paul says deacons and pastors are not to be given to much wine (which means a little is fine).  

 

Why do you feel compelled to force an interpretation of the Bible on others when my interpretation is just as valid?  I honestly do not see why this is an important issue.  Some enjoy in moderation, others abstain.  We can all get along.  :-)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But everyone knows some words have more than one meaning and the example you used--'meat'--is precisely one of those words. Every dictionary has 'food more generally' listed as an archaic meaning of the word 'meat'. We even use that meaning a bit today, e.g. mincemeat.

 

But that doesn't mean we can say that all words therefore have more than one meaning, and that 'wine' necessarily does. I'd be really interested in hearing evidence that in 17th century England the word 'wine' was taken to mean 'grape juice' in addition to the meaning it has today.

1759 Nathan Bailey's "New Universal English Dictionary of Words and of Arts and Sciences" defines wine as

"Natural wine is such as it comes from the grape, without any mixture or sophistication. Adulterated wine is that wherein some drug is added to give it strength, fineness, flavor, briskness, or some other qualification."

Benjamin Marin's "Lingua Britannica Reformata or A New English Dictionary" published in 1748, defines wine as

"1.  the juice of the grape

2. a liquor extracted from other fruits besides the grape
3.  the vapours of wine, as wine disturbs his reason."

Dictionary.com gives dual definitions

"The juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits, or plants, used as a beverage, sauce, etc.: gooseberry wine; currant wine."

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that prior to the 19th century A.D., the word wine could mean either fermented or unfermented beverage.

I highly doubt it meant strictly fermented beverage in the 17th century A.D.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of them doesn't count because it is a figurative use whereas we are talking about literal meanings. In fact, for a word to be used figuratively it must be understood what it means literally. As for 1 Samuel 25:18, yes it does appear that the word wine is being used in a different way there.

 

Don't think I'm saying I don't know how to go away and read. But we're having a discussion here aren't we? And a discussion is where people share what they know. Otherwise we could just shut down this forum and replace with a URL to the AV.

No, they all count. 

What I am getting at is that Bible has many different uses for the word wine, and one of those uses is in a figurative manner.  It goes to show that there is not just ONE definition of the word "wine" in our KJV Bible.  I included this use because the person I quoted (I think it was robmac???) insists that there is only ONE definition of the word "wine" and that the KJV ALWAYS uses "wine" in reference to an alcoholic beverage. 

I disagree - the Bible uses the word "wine" several different ways - some of which I listed - and one of those ways is figurative. 

 

What I did was collated every reference to the word wine, and it became apparent after some time that there were several different uses of the word.  Once I realized this, I began to categorize them accordingly.  One of my categories was "unclear".  By this I mean that the passages in question did not indicate either way if the "wine" in question was alcoholic or not....in some of those passages, I could give my opinion based on circumstances, but nothing beyond that.....but I don't like teaching my opinion....so I created that category for my own purposes.  However, the vast majority of the references fit very neatly into these categories:

 

Harvest produce

new wine (mentioned specifically in Scripture - a reference to fresh juice)

Sustenance - part of a meal

Alcohol

An Offering

Narrative - the word "wine" is used in part of the narrative of a passage, but not sure what kind of wine

Illustrative - the use of the word "wine" is meant only to illustrate the effects of wine, or something of that nature.  The point of the passage is not to condone or to condemn wine, but rather to illustrate a point.

Prophetic - such as the use in Revelation 14

Medicinal

Winebibber

Winepress

 

Does that help?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   0 Members, 0 Anonymous, 116 Guests (See full list)

    There are no registered users currently online

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...