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Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

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Why would a born again Christian even desire to drink a substance that intoxicates and causes so much woe?

Proverbs 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
Proverbs 23:30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Proverbs 23:32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
Proverbs 23:33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Proverbs 23:34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
Proverbs 23:35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

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Well, being that Jesus made wine for the weddings guests as his first miracle....

 

And that he drank and served it at the Last Supper...

Jesus did not turn water into fermented wine nor did He drink it at the Last Supper or serve it to His disciples.

Edited by LindaR

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Jesus did not turn water into fermented wine nor did He drink it at the Last Supper or serve it to His disciples.

 

I'm not sure how you could read it any other way.  Wine was (and is) served in the Jewish culture at Passover.  Jesus was observing passover with his disciples.  Plus, the Bible says it is wine.  At Cana, the waiter is astonished they served the best wine last, as it is usually served first (serve the best first, and then when the senses are a bit dulled, serve the inferior wine.)

 

Plus, look at the OT.  Deuteronomy 4.26:

 

"Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before theLord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,"

 

This clearly refers to wine and strong drink, and says to eat what was purchased before the LORD.  

 

I understand it is unwise for some to drink, and why many choose to do so.  But to say it is sinful, well that is just nowhere in the Bible.  

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I'm not sure how you could read it any other way.  Wine was (and is) served in the Jewish culture at Passover.  Jesus was observing passover with his disciples.  Plus, the Bible says it is wine.  At Cana, the waiter is astonished they served the best wine last, as it is usually served first (serve the best first, and then when the senses are a bit dulled, serve the inferior wine.)

 

Plus, look at the OT.  Deuteronomy 4.26:

 

"Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.

23 And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always.

24 And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

25 Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose:

26 And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before theLord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,"

 

This clearly refers to wine and strong drink, and says to eat what was purchased before the LORD.  

 

I understand it is unwise for some to drink, and why many choose to do so.  But to say it is sinful, well that is just nowhere in the Bible.  

John 2 does not say anything about senses being dulled.  You are reading into the text what just is not there.

You may want to continue reading Deuteronomy (specifically chapters 29 and 32)  The Israelites drank wine, but it was not the fermented wine you suppose.  Rather it was the pure blood of the grape.

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Proverbs 31:4-6 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

God's Word tells us that we have been made kings and priests unto Him.  How can one who has been made a king or a priest unto God justify drinking when it is not for kings to drink?

How can one justify drinking when they are priests in God's service?  One might argue that Leviticus' warning to priests in not to drink in the tabernacle.  News Flash.  Christ is our Tabernacle, and as a saved people, we are found in Him .  He will never leave us, nor forsake us.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

We are to be found always abounding in the work of the Lord.  How can we properly work for the Lord when we are in disobedience to His instruction "it is not for kings to drink"?

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Proverbs 31:4-6 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted. Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.  This has always been my view. Priests, while in sevice in the temple and tabernacle, were never to drink anything as it would pervert judgment.
 

 

 

This I do disagree with-certainly the Israelites drank fermented alcohol-doesn't mean they were supposed to, but they did. However, most of what they drank was not fermented in the way we think today-unfortunately I can't go into the whole thing right now, as my wife knows it better than I. However, I DO believe that at expecially Passover, it was pure juice.

 

If anyone was to look at an old dictionary, like the old Wabster's of 1828, it tells us that back then, and before, the word 'wine' had a PRIMARY meaning of unfermented grape or friut JUICE, and a secondary meaning of fermented juice. So the word, "wine' often referred to juice.

 

It, of course, would have made no sense that Jesus drank fermented wine, as he is the Great High Priest, and it would have been disobedience against His own word.

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Just Checking those mines that are here.... :)

Checking mines, or stirring pots???  :icon_smile:

 

We are saved by God's grace, and kept by God's grace.  We can't do anything to earn our salvation, nor can we do anything to lose it. 

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Well, being that Jesus made wine for the weddings guests as his first miracle....

 

And that he drank and served it at the Last Supper...

I would encourage you to get a concordance and check every last reference to the word "wine" in your KJV Bible - you will be surprised at how many different ways the word "wine" is used.  When I did this, I came up with 8 different categories of how the word "wine" is used in the Bible. 

Further, when you add "strong drink" into the study, I do not see how it is possible that our Lord and Saviour either made alcohol, served alcohol, or drank alcohol. 

The best references for my conclusion are Prov. 23, Hab. 2:15, Prov. 20:1, for starters.

 

Do the study - it will help you.

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This I do disagree with-certainly the Israelites drank fermented alcohol-doesn't mean they were supposed to, but they did. However, most of what they drank was not fermented in the way we think today-unfortunately I can't go into the whole thing right now, as my wife knows it better than I. However, I DO believe that at expecially Passover, it was pure juice.

 

If anyone was to look at an old dictionary, like the old Wabster's of 1828, it tells us that back then, and before, the word 'wine' had a PRIMARY meaning of unfermented grape or friut JUICE, and a secondary meaning of fermented juice. So the word, "wine' often referred to juice.

 

It, of course, would have made no sense that Jesus drank fermented wine, as he is the Great High Priest, and it would have been disobedience against His own word.

When I did my exhaustive study on Wine and Alcohol in the Bible, I came across a couple of different Bible dictionaries that confirmed what you say here.  Most Bible dictionaries, the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, and others say that they had no way to prevent the grape juice from fermenting.  This is not true.  They did.  They would reduce the juice down into a "must", and they could preserve it in a cold pond, or in their cellars.  They did not preserve it as "juice."  That is why they mixed it with water.  It is very similar to our frozen concentrated juices, only theirs was not frozen - just kept cold or cool.  

I found this in Smith's Bible Dictionary and Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary.  Therefore those ancient peoples DID know how to preserve their juices without it fermenting.  Since the RCC insists on alcohol in their "mass" of course they will encourage and promote the idea that "nobody knew how to prevent fermentation back then."   Well, they are wrong - and so is every one who repeats their babbling nonsense.

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When I did my exhaustive study on Wine and Alcohol in the Bible, I came across a couple of different Bible dictionaries that confirmed what you say here.  Most Bible dictionaries, the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, and others say that they had no way to prevent the grape juice from fermenting.  This is not true.  They did.  They would reduce the juice down into a "must", and they could preserve it in a cold pond, or in their cellars.  They did not preserve it as "juice."  That is why they mixed it with water.  It is very similar to our frozen concentrated juices, only theirs was not frozen - just kept cold or cool.  

I found this in Smith's Bible Dictionary and Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary.  Therefore those ancient peoples DID know how to preserve their juices without it fermenting.  Since the RCC insists on alcohol in their "mass" of course they will encourage and promote the idea that "nobody knew how to prevent fermentation back then."   Well, they are wrong - and so is every one who repeats their babbling nonsense.

 A lot of wishful thinking on this thread.  New wine will not be fermented, old wine will be.  

 

Luke 5:37  And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38  But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
 

 

If new wine was not fermented there would be no problem with putting it into old wine skins. New wine ferments and the skin stretches.  IOf it is put into old skins the wine would ferment and burst the skin which has already stretched

Edited by Invicta

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 A lot of wishful thinking on this thread.  New wine will not be fermented, old wine will be.  

 

Luke 5:37  And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
38  But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
 

 

If new wine was not fermented there would be no problem with putting it into old wine skins. New wine ferments and the skin stretches.  IOf it is put into old skins the wine would ferment and burst the skin which has already stretched

Please don't misunderstand me.  I am not saying that the Jewish people NEVER fermented their wine and drank it as a very MILD alcoholic beverage. 

And of course, they had a problem with "strong drink" just like we do today.

 

I am saying that not everyone did that, and that they did indeed have a way to preserve their freshly pressed juices without it fermenting.   The Roman Catholic theory is that they did not know how to preserve it without it fermenting....that theory is just as false as the theory of evolution - and I gave my sources for that conclusion.

 

Also, just because they did preserve it as an alcoholic beverage does not mean they were right in doing so. 

I have not yet encountered a CLEAR passage that condones the drinking of alcohol.  You can quote Deut. 14 if you want, but it is not CLEAR, especially when compared to the rest of the entire Bible on the subject.

 

In Christ,

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From "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence" by Leighton G. campbell -- page 143


The difference between the new bottles and the old consisted not in the relative proportion of their strength; but arose solely from the fact that the new bottles had in them no fermentable matter.

Let us consider this. If new wine was poured into old bottles the particles of yeast on the old wineskins would cause the wine to ferment thus bursting the wineskins, "A little leaven (fermen- tation) leaveneth the whole lump." (Galatians 5:9) The aim therefore was to keep the wine sweet and unfermented hence the new bottles. This goes perfectly with Christ's parable, because His teaching had to remain -uncorrupted (unfermented). Dr. William Patton explains the following:

The new bottles, or skins, being clean and perfectly free from all ferment, were essential for preserving the fresh unfermented juice, not that their strength might resist the force of fermentation, but, being clean and free from fermenting matter, and closely tied and sealed, so as to exclude the air, the wine would be preserved in the same state in which it was when put into the skins.
He goes on to add:

Columella, who lived in the days of the Apostles, in his recipe for keeping the wine "always sweet," expressly directs that the newest must, be put in a "new amphora," or jar.

This agrees with Parson's explanation, which states:

The vessel they required was not one that could bear fermentation without breaking, but one which would effectually preserve the wines from fermenting; and, therefore, the text alludes to the custom of preserving wines from fermentation, which both Pliny and Columella inform us was common at that very period when the Saviour uttered these words.

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Hab 2:15  Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!
 

This is Old Testament,so some may say "It doesn't count".  "Nakedness" is shame, and doesn't always have to be running around with nothing on.

 

As for the study of wine in Strong's, I did the same thing Bro Steve did, and found the same surprising results.  There were many "types" of wine, including pure grape juice, (the "root" of wine.)

Edited by irishman

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KOB is Anglibaptist and reads the MVs too.

 

KOB, did you know that it wasn't until the last fifty years that wines came to mean just fermented grape juice?  Even hundreds of years after 1611, Funk and Wagnalls still referred to wine as grape juice but had both definitions.  It depends on the context.

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From "Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence" by Leighton G. campbell -- pp. 143,144...

Jesus could not have been likening His teaching of the Kingdom of grace to eventual fermentation, since this is fundamentally a decay process. Christ's teaching must remain uncorrupted or uncontaminated. If Christ's teaching was put into old bottles (legalistic tradition) it would eventually ferment, that is, be perverted, thus causing utter confusion.
We have seen that Jesus in no way condones the use of intox- icating wine but rather the opposite. He presents new wine in a figurative sense to show the virtue of grace, in contrast to old wine, which represented the hopelessness of legalistic tradition. Like the new wine He speaks of in His parable, His teaching must not be changed (ferment), but must remain in its original form. Note Christ's words, But new wine must be put into new bottles; and BOTH ARE PRESERVED.

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KOB is Anglibaptist and reads the MVs too.

 

KOB, did you know that it wasn't until the last fifty years that wines came to mean just fermented grape juice?  Even hundreds of years after 1611, Funk and Wagnalls still referred to wine as grape juice but had both definitions.  It depends on the context.

What is an "Anglibaptist"? I don't think I've ever heard of that before.

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When I did my exhaustive study on Wine and Alcohol in the Bible, I came across a couple of different Bible dictionaries that confirmed what you say here.  Most Bible dictionaries, the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, and others say that they had no way to prevent the grape juice from fermenting.  This is not true.  They did.  They would reduce the juice down into a "must", and they could preserve it in a cold pond, or in their cellars.  They did not preserve it as "juice."  That is why they mixed it with water.  It is very similar to our frozen concentrated juices, only theirs was not frozen - just kept cold or cool.  

I found this in Smith's Bible Dictionary and Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary.  Therefore those ancient peoples DID know how to preserve their juices without it fermenting.  Since the RCC insists on alcohol in their "mass" of course they will encourage and promote the idea that "nobody knew how to prevent fermentation back then."   Well, they are wrong - and so is every one who repeats their babbling nonsense.

 

And its amazing at how many will let the RCC influence them.

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Jesus did not turn water into fermented wine nor did He drink it at the Last Supper or serve it to His disciples.

The same word for wine in John 2:3 is used in Romans 14:21

 

Jhn 2:3

And when they wanted wine, G3631 the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. G3631

 

Rom 14:21

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, G3631 nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

...and lets not forget

 

Eph 5:18

And be not drunk with wine, G3631 wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

 

I guess what alot are saying is there is a problem with the KJV because they didn't have the word "juice" in 1611 ???

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Jesus did not turn water into fermented wine nor did He drink it at the Last Supper or serve it to His disciples.

John 2:9-10

When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

 

I have never heard anyone doing this with grape juice?  Were they drinking "Great Value" brand and then someone gave them "Welches" and the govenor of the feast was so excited to get Welches?

 

When you are drunk, you will drink anything and the taste won't matter much because your senses are dulled.  Spend a little more on "good wine" and let the guests get drunk on that and then when you serve the bad stuff, they won't care nor will they judge you for giving bad stuff because all they can remember is the stuff they drank first. 

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When I did my exhaustive study on Wine and Alcohol in the Bible, I came across a couple of different Bible dictionaries that confirmed what you say here.  Most Bible dictionaries, the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, and others say that they had no way to prevent the grape juice from fermenting.  This is not true.  They did.  They would reduce the juice down into a "must", and they could preserve it in a cold pond, or in their cellars.  They did not preserve it as "juice."  That is why they mixed it with water.  It is very similar to our frozen concentrated juices, only theirs was not frozen - just kept cold or cool.  

I found this in Smith's Bible Dictionary and Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary.  Therefore those ancient peoples DID know how to preserve their juices without it fermenting.  Since the RCC insists on alcohol in their "mass" of course they will encourage and promote the idea that "nobody knew how to prevent fermentation back then."   Well, they are wrong - and so is every one who repeats their babbling nonsense.

maybe you would want to do an exhaustive study on the word "contradiction." 

 

How does someone have the belief "the KJV is the literal Word of God for english speaking people" and then come up with the thought, "wine is not wine, it is juice!" 

 

No wonder most the lost world thinks Christians are a bunch of hypocritical knuckleheads.  We spend hours and hours trying to justify wine being juice and then try to tell other "Christians" they are using the wrong Bible if they are not using the KJV because it's perfect.

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Why Rob are you applying modern definitions to a word that remained essentially unchanged until about sixty years ago?  How can you rightly divide the Scriptures if you don't know what the words mean and cannot see the contexts?

 

Here's some reading material:

 

Page 20 here:

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/10dectbc.pdf

 

Page 5 on this one (you might like the front page article too):

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/11febtbc.pdf

 

Finally, Page 3 here:

 

http://www.baptistchallenge.org/challenge/96martbc.pdf

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