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Are Christians That Drink Wine Not Saved?

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Here on Earth, what is the big deal about having a cup of Wine, by not are you a better Christian? Don't take your cold Medicine, it may have more alcohol than the Wine.

Here on earth I serve the Master who said even looking on fermented wine isn't wise.  Does not drinking make me a better Christian?  Of course not.  It is the heart that matters most.  But too many Christians forget that if the heart is what it should be, actions would change.  And saying it is the heart that matters does not excuse sins...Again, if God says it isn't wise, why would I think I could know more than He does?  

 

My cold medicine has no alcohol in it.  Colloidal silver, Ecinicea, Elderberry syrup (non-fermented), etc. No alcohol, and much more efficacious.  :icon_smile:

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Beer is not a strong drink.  It's alcohol content ranges from 4-8% typically.  Wine is around 12-14%.  Strong drink like bourbon or vodka is way higher than wine.  So beer is really a weak drink.

 

The principal is not to drink to excess and become drunk. In the NT, Paul says deacons and pastors are not to be given to much wine (which means a little is fine).  

 

Why do you feel compelled to force an interpretation of the Bible on others when my interpretation is just as valid?  I honestly do not see why this is an important issue.  Some enjoy in moderation, others abstain.  We can all get along.  :-)

Suit yourself.  I don't go by your definition, I go by the Bible's definition. If you were to categorize "beer" in the Bible, the only Biblical definition it would fit in would be "strong drink." 

I am not forcing an interpretation - my "interpretation" comes from an exhaustive study of the Bible. 

Where does your "interpretation" come from?

One thing is for certain, you have made sure your interpretation does not condemn your practice of MAKING the garbage that has been very instrumental in the destruction of our society.

 

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

 

If that does not describe the typical American, I don't know what does.  Any excuse to party, drink, and crack open a case of beer.....Thanks for helping them do that!

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1759 Nathan Bailey's "New Universal English Dictionary of Words and of Arts and Sciences" defines wine as

"Natural wine is such as it comes from the grape, without any mixture or sophistication. Adulterated wine is that wherein some drug is added to give it strength, fineness, flavor, briskness, or some other qualification."

Benjamin Marin's "Lingua Britannica Reformata or A New English Dictionary" published in 1748, defines wine as

"1.  the juice of the grape

2. a liquor extracted from other fruits besides the grape
3.  the vapours of wine, as wine disturbs his reason."

Dictionary.com gives dual definitions

"The juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits, or plants, used as a beverage, sauce, etc.: gooseberry wine; currant wine."

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that prior to the 19th century A.D., the word wine could mean either fermented or unfermented beverage.

I highly doubt it meant strictly fermented beverage in the 17th century A.D.

 

Thanks, SFIC.

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No, they all count. 

What I am getting at is that Bible has many different uses for the word wine, and one of those uses is in a figurative manner.  It goes to show that there is not just ONE definition of the word "wine" in our KJV Bible.  I included this use because the person I quoted (I think it was robmac???) insists that there is only ONE definition of the word "wine" and that the KJV ALWAYS uses "wine" in reference to an alcoholic beverage. 

I disagree - the Bible uses the word "wine" several different ways - some of which I listed - and one of those ways is figurative. 

 

What I did was collated every reference to the word wine, and it became apparent after some time that there were several different uses of the word.  Once I realized this, I began to categorize them accordingly.  One of my categories was "unclear".  By this I mean that the passages in question did not indicate either way if the "wine" in question was alcoholic or not....in some of those passages, I could give my opinion based on circumstances, but nothing beyond that.....but I don't like teaching my opinion....so I created that category for my own purposes.  However, the vast majority of the references fit very neatly into these categories:

 

Harvest produce

new wine (mentioned specifically in Scripture - a reference to fresh juice)

Sustenance - part of a meal

Alcohol

An Offering

Narrative - the word "wine" is used in part of the narrative of a passage, but not sure what kind of wine

Illustrative - the use of the word "wine" is meant only to illustrate the effects of wine, or something of that nature.  The point of the passage is not to condone or to condemn wine, but rather to illustrate a point.

Prophetic - such as the use in Revelation 14

Medicinal

Winebibber

Winepress

 

Does that help?

 

Thanks Steve, I appreciate you laying out your approach to the study and I will go and do likewise.

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Suit yourself.  I don't go by your definition, I go by the Bible's definition. If you were to categorize "beer" in the Bible, the only Biblical definition it would fit in would be "strong drink." 

I am not forcing an interpretation - my "interpretation" comes from an exhaustive study of the Bible. 

Where does your "interpretation" come from?

One thing is for certain, you have made sure your interpretation does not condemn your practice of MAKING the garbage that has been very instrumental in the destruction of our society.

 

Isa 5:11 Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning, that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night, till wine inflame them!
Isa 5:22 Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:

 

If that does not describe the typical American, I don't know what does.  Any excuse to party, drink, and crack open a case of beer.....Thanks for helping them do that!

 

My interpretation comes from a plain reading and an exhaustive search as well.  I grew up believing alcohol was sinful.  In college, where I was a Biblical studies major, I did a study on this and wrote a paper.  My initial purpose was to prove that drinking was wrong.  After my study, In concluded just the opposite.  That it is perfectly fine in moderation.  I also came to the conclusion that Jesus very likely made wine at the wedding and served it at the last supper (where wine was typically served during Passover).  

 

Believe me, I am sure I have given this as much thought and prayer as you have, but we have simply reached different conclusions.  So grab a soda, let's have a drink, and be merry.  :-)

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My interpretation comes from a plain reading and an exhaustive search as well.  I grew up believing alcohol was sinful.  In college, where I was a Biblical studies major, I did a study on this and wrote a paper.  My initial purpose was to prove that drinking was wrong.  After my study, In concluded just the opposite.  That it is perfectly fine in moderation.  I also came to the conclusion that Jesus very likely made wine at the wedding and served it at the last supper (where wine was typically served during Passover).  

 

Believe me, I am sure I have given this as much thought and prayer as you have, but we have simply reached different conclusions.  So grab a soda, let's have a drink, and be merry.  :-)

I draw the line on alcohol - it is an issue that I separate from others over, and especially from those who make it.

My guess is that your conclusions came as the result over the confusion spread by "Bible" Dictionaries, encyclopedias, lexicons, and the like.  The Roman Catholic Church has been instrumental in advocating "moderate" drinking, even back in the 1800's.  They knew that if they could get people drinking even "a little" they would be able to control them.  They have had too much influence in the standard study helps over the last 150 years, and it is now being manifested in our pulpits. 

However, there are still a few HONEST dictionaries out there that demonstrate that - yes - it was possible for people in the Biblical Era to preserve their juices without it fermenting.  That being the case, it brings a whole new light on the subject. 

When you erase all the junk you were taught by others on "wine" and "alcohol" and just go by the good ole' KJV Bible that God has supernaturally preserved for us....you come out with a whole different line of thinking.  When you couple that with our historic Baptist foundations, you find that Baptist preachers in the 1600's and 1700's were preaching the same thing I am - total abstinence.  I wonder why they took that position way back then?  Maybe they were just ignorant?  Or maybe...just maybe...the OLD PATHS are the best paths (Jer. 6:16).  Maybe - just maybe - those old time preachers knew something about God and the Bible that too many Christians simply don't want to know.

 

Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

 

You go ahead and keep on preaching your false doctrine, and leading people astray.   Judgment Day is coming, and you will have a lot to give an answer for - teaching false doctrine, encouraging people to sin, and producing alcohol.  How many families have been destroyed by the alcohol that you have produced?  I sure would not have to give an account for that!

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I draw the line on alcohol - it is an issue that I separate from others over, and especially from those who make it.

My guess is that your conclusions came as the result over the confusion spread by "Bible" Dictionaries, encyclopedias, lexicons, and the like.  The Roman Catholic Church has been instrumental in advocating "moderate" drinking, even back in the 1800's.  They knew that if they could get people drinking even "a little" they would be able to control them.  They have had too much influence in the standard study helps over the last 150 years, and it is now being manifested in our pulpits. 

However, there are still a few HONEST dictionaries out there that demonstrate that - yes - it was possible for people in the Biblical Era to preserve their juices without it fermenting.  That being the case, it brings a whole new light on the subject. 

When you erase all the junk you were taught by others on "wine" and "alcohol" and just go by the good ole' KJV Bible that God has supernaturally preserved for us....you come out with a whole different line of thinking.  When you couple that with our historic Baptist foundations, you find that Baptist preachers in the 1600's and 1700's were preaching the same thing I am - total abstinence.  I wonder why they took that position way back then?  Maybe they were just ignorant?  Or maybe...just maybe...the OLD PATHS are the best paths (Jer. 6:16).  Maybe - just maybe - those old time preachers knew something about God and the Bible that too many Christians simply don't want to know.

 

Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

 

You go ahead and keep on preaching your false doctrine, and leading people astray.   Judgment Day is coming, and you will have a lot to give an answer for - teaching false doctrine, encouraging people to sin, and producing alcohol.  How many families have been destroyed by the alcohol that you have produced?  I sure would not have to give an account for that!

There are just as many old time preachers and theologians who partook as those who did not.  Martin Luther an John Calvin come to mind immediately.

 

I expect that one day in heaven I will get to partake of the wine Jesus made.  perhaps he will even teach me his recipe! 

 

It is the abuse of alcohol, not alcohol, that destroys families.  I could say the same about many things.  The abuse of medicine destroys families.  Yet medicine as prescribed heals.  The abuse of food kills people through heart attacks, diabetes, cancer.  Yet that does not make food evil.  The abuse of a gun kills people, yet that does not make guns evil.  The abuse of cars kill people, yet that does not make cars evil.

 

There is nothing false about my belief here.  I have done nothing to encourage sin.  I merely enjoy a God given substance in moderation.  I do not expect others to enjoy it with me unless they so desire.  I will not encourage you, for instance, to take up a beer stein, since you feel it is wrong.  If you were to come to my house I would offer you tea or soda.  Yet I do not believe it is wrong, so I will continue to partake.  

 

It really isn't something that should prevent fellow Christians from enjoying one another's company.

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Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

Powerful revelation that those who preach that wine and strong drink are favorable would best commit to memory.  God reveals that their claim that wine and strong drink are favorable are actually lying to the people.

Notice in that verse there is no mention of this so-called "moderation" that so many want to use to justify their disobedience to God?  God did not say the one who prophesies of wine in strong drink in abundance is a liar... NO!  He said the one who prophesies of wine and strong drink is a liar.  He puts no provender for "moderation" in that verse whatsoever.

Those who teach fermented wine is OK to drink are liars, just as the Word of God says they are.

Proverbs 31:4-5 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink: Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

We have all been made kings and priests who are God's.  It is not for us to drink alcoholic beverages.  Alcohol is the cup of devils, not that which God provides for His children.

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My interpretation comes from a plain reading and an exhaustive search as well.  I grew up believing alcohol was sinful.  In college, where I was a Biblical studies major, I did a study on this and wrote a paper.  My initial purpose was to prove that drinking was wrong.  After my study, In concluded just the opposite.  That it is perfectly fine in moderation.  I also came to the conclusion that Jesus very likely made wine at the wedding and served it at the last supper (where wine was typically served during Passover).  

 

Believe me, I am sure I have given this as much thought and prayer as you have, but we have simply reached different conclusions.  So grab a soda, let's have a drink, and be merry.  :-)

It is NOT perfectly fine to drink beverage alcohol in moderation.  Beverage alcohol in any amount inebriates....that's why it is called an intoxicant.  Notice that the root word is "toxic".  It is a poison.  It is a legal drug.  Do you partake of "poison" in moderation?
 

IS IT ALRIGHT FOR A CHRISTIAN TO DRINK MODERATELY?

(1) No, even slight drinking impairs one's thinking and lowers alertness to spiritual danger (1 Peter 5:8-9).

(2) No, Christians are not to be controlled by liquor (Ephesians 5:18).

(3) No, Christians are priests, and the Bible forbids priests to drink (1 Peter 2:9; Leviticus 10:8,11).

(4) No, Christians are not to touch the unclean thing (2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1).

(5) No, Christians are to abstain from every form of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22).

(6) No, Christians who drink cause others to stumble (Romans 14:21).

(7) No, wine is a mocker and a deceiver (Proverbs 20:1).

 

No man who takes an alcoholic beverage to his lips knows exactly where it will lead. (Way of Life Encyclopedia: WINE)

Edited by LindaR

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There are just as many old time preachers and theologians who partook as those who did not.  Martin Luther an John Calvin come to mind immediately.

 

I expect that one day in heaven I will get to partake of the wine Jesus made.  perhaps he will even teach me his recipe! 

 

It is the abuse of alcohol, not alcohol, that destroys families.  I could say the same about many things.  The abuse of medicine destroys families.  Yet medicine as prescribed heals.  The abuse of food kills people through heart attacks, diabetes, cancer.  Yet that does not make food evil.  The abuse of a gun kills people, yet that does not make guns evil.  The abuse of cars kill people, yet that does not make cars evil.

 

There is nothing false about my belief here.  I have done nothing to encourage sin.  I merely enjoy a God given substance in moderation.  I do not expect others to enjoy it with me unless they so desire.  I will not encourage you, for instance, to take up a beer stein, since you feel it is wrong.  If you were to come to my house I would offer you tea or soda.  Yet I do not believe it is wrong, so I will continue to partake.  

 

It really isn't something that should prevent fellow Christians from enjoying one another's company.

The problem here is that you are comparing apples to oranges.  Food is necessary for survival - alcohol is not.  Medicine is oftentimes necessary for survival as well - alcohol is not.  Guns are used for hunting (i.e. provision of necessary food), and self-defense - Alcohol is not.  Cars are necessary for transportation to work, store, etc. - Alcohol is not necessary for ANYTHING.

The consumption of alcohol is a conscious decision that has no POSITIVE affect on one's health.    Alcohol is a RECREATIONAL choice - period. 

 

Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

 

The verse does not say that "WIne is a mocker for those who get drunk."  It does not say that "whosoever is deceived by getting drunk."  Nope.  It says plainly that if you partake, you have been deceived. 

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It is not true that it is only the abuse of alcohol that destroys families.  I know someone very well who would turn vicious after ONE beer.  Just one.  It almost destroyed that family, physically hurt the daughter of that family as well (threatened to hurt the wife).  One beer, which most people would say is moderation.

 

Alcohol affects the mind, and even those who think they know their limits don't really know them...

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It is not true that it is only the abuse of alcohol that destroys families.  I know someone very well who would turn vicious after ONE beer.  Just one.  It almost destroyed that family, physically hurt the daughter of that family as well (threatened to hurt the wife).  One beer, which most people would say is moderation.

 

Alcohol affects the mind, and even those who think they know their limits don't really know them...

Amen LuAnne. 

 

Drinking beverage alcohol (of any type) in "moderation" is a joke.  There is no such thing.  That is a lie from the devil himself!

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Tests show that after drinking three bottles of beer, there is an average of 13% net memory loss.  After taking only small quantities of alcohol, trained typists were tested and their errors increased 40%.  Only one ounce of alcohol increases the time required to make a decision by nearly 10 percent; hinders muscular reaction by 17 percent; increases errors due to lack of attention by 35 percent. -- Paul Harvey

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Rather amazing that something as seemingly simple as this topic is still going on after five pages. I know there is debate out there in some of the liberal mainline churches (of which KOB partakes) but typically among IFBs (as well as other conservative churches) this issue has long ago been settled upon the Word of God.

 

In any event, many good posts in this thread with some good information for those who need it and who are willing to accept biblical truth.

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Every drunkard started with the belief that "Just one drink won't hurt."

One drink... that's all it takes for many to become drunkards, wife beaters, child killers, thieves, brawlers, etc..

It is amazing how one can believe that God gave such a vile drink to man to enjoy as a recreational beverage.

The truth is, God did not give that drink to man... man invented that drink to appease his own fleshly lusts and desires.

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

1 Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

One who teaches that God gave man alcohol is giving license to sin... whether he wants to believe it or not.  Every potential drunkard that reads, or listens to, that persons words who picks up the bottle thinking "Brother So-and-So said it was OK" is only fooling himself by thinking so.  Just one drink... that is all it takes to put one on the road to destruction.

And the false prophet that convinced you of taking that drink is just ahead of you on that same broad road.

Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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Rather amazing that something as seemingly simple as this topic is still going on after five pages. I know there is debate out there in some of the liberal mainline churches (of which KOB partakes) but typically among IFBs (as well as other conservative churches) this issue has long ago been settled upon the Word of God.

 

In any event, many good posts in this thread with some good information for those who need it and who are willing to accept biblical truth.

I am not so sure of that anymore, John.  I was in attendance at an IFB church in Topeka, KS, where the Adult Sunday School teacher was teaching the very same thing that kindofblue is, with the pastor seated on the front row.  I left, and never went back.  I believe this type of teaching is creeping into our churches.  We are in the days of apostacy, that is for sure!

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I am not so sure of that anymore, John.  I was in attendance at an IFB church in Topeka, KS, where the Adult Sunday School teacher was teaching the very same thing that kindofblue is, with the pastor seated on the front row.  I left, and never went back.  I believe this type of teaching is creeping into our churches.  We are in the days of apostacy, that is for sure!

Unfortunately I must agree. There are several IFB churches in this area which have gone astray. I'm not sure if any teach drinking booze is okay, but considering some of their other liberal, unbiblical stances, it wouldn't surprise me if one or more does.

 

Perhaps it would be more accurate if I said, historically IFBs have stood upon the Word of God regarding this issue.

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Yes that would be more accurate.

I am reading (among other things) the writings of John Leland - Baptist preacher from the Revolutionary War days.  He was firmly against drinking, dancing, secular music, etc.  It is nice reading our Baptist history and finding out that I am preaching what they preached way back them.....

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We can agree to disagree.  :-)

In other words, "I will believe what I want to believe, and you believe what you want to believe."  You are choosing to remain where you are "comfortable" in order to justify your drinking of beverage alcohol and your belief that "drinking beverage alcohol in moderation is fine".   Why do you want to avoid the truth that the Bible teaches total abstinence and nowhere does the Bible teach or advocate "drinking beverage alcohol in moderation".

Edited by LindaR

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Micah 2:11 If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy unto thee of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people.

 

Just my observation in my nearly 68 years of life.

 

Seems there's many that lets those they associate with in business & society have a large influence over their interpretation of the Bible, especially when it comes to drinking.

 

The society people in the small town down the road from my house loves to serve drinks at their society get togethers, & many of those who attend are those who are members of the churches in that small town. And of course they would not dare offend those who are unchurched by refusing to drink the drinks that they offer them nor to serve drinks when they're hosting an event.

 

I also know that the unchurched in that society talks about the church people drinking drinks as being hypocrites for some of them have expressed this to me about them never turning down a drink at their functions while in fact always asking for more, yet on Sunday morning they're setting on the church pews saying amen.

 

Ro 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 

Those church people who drink those drinks with their society friends & business associates just don't understand how much of a stumbling block they are for their unchurched friends & how they talk about them behind their backs. Yes they become a stumblingblock to their friends & business associates yet they would never admit it for they do not want to give up drinking even for our Lord & the sake of the lost.

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