Paycheck for fulltime worker? Is it Biblical?

[Wilchbla]

I agree with you Calvary, yet I will say that some live way to high off of God's Word, but that's for our Lord to take care of.

I know of two Baptist churches that I attended for a time that went through this. The one pastor demanded 60k a year plus the house with all expenses paid. This was back in '95 so that was a pretty good clip. The other church which was relatively small and poor couldn't find a pastor for a long time because they couldn't afford the outrageous salaries they wanted. The one pastor who'd recently graduated from Hyles-Anderson would only preach on Sunday morning until he got the pay he wanted. The last I heard this church was still looking for a pastor.

[2Tim215]

I know of two Baptist churches that I attended for a time that went through this. The one pastor demanded 60k a year plus the house with all expenses paid. This was back in '95 so that was a pretty good clip. The other church which was relatively small and poor couldn't find a pastor for a long time because they couldn't afford the outrageous salaries they wanted. The one pastor who'd recently graduated from Hyles-Anderson would only preach on Sunday morning until he got the pay he wanted. The last I heard this church was still looking for a pastor.

That's just wrong. I know men here in SA that drive 400 kms to preach for free! That go out every Saturday to street preach and give out tracts. I would happily preach if my needs were met, not my wants. As a bladesmith and artist blacksmith I can work after hours for extra money. I think the problem is that there was a short period of time where churches were full and pastors could get positions that offered a building and a "manse" and it became an expected thing. My brother in law is a Presbyterian pastor and for a long time suffered because they have this thing - you can be "called" by a church or the church can offer you a contract. In the beginning he was given a contract and had to preach and do as the elders and deacons commanded, when he refused to compromise they told him that though they could do nothing now, he better start looking for another "job" as they would not renew his contract. He has recently been "called" by another Presy church - this means that he can stay or go as he is led by the Lord and and the church has no say in the matter. He can preach the Word and though the elders and deacons have a say, it holds no weight in the sense that they can fire him. He now has a nice big church with generally good people and a house next to the church - but it took ten yrs of hard work and staying true to his calling.

What has it come to when churches control the pastors preaching by tightening the purse strings? And pastors must be forced into positions where they must choose to compromise or not by the elders if they want to feed there family?

It's the same with the youth of today, they want dads house and car right after getting there first pay check yet don't want to work the 20 yrs it took for dad to get the nice house and car.

[Steve Schwenke]

The spirit of Laodicea has invaded our churches. Too many Bible College grads don't want to suffer for Christ's sake. They want their nice little kingdom to pay them a nice fat paycheck, with all of the amenities - housing, cars, retirement, etc.
However, preaching and pastoring are a God-given CALLING, which brings much sacrifice, self-denial, hardship, and suffering. We are to be like Christ, and Christ said that the servant is not above the master.
So I agree that too many Career-oriented "pastors" have lost this vision of God's calling, and have bought into the Laodicean/Charismatic "wealth and prosperity" teaching.
This does NOT relieve the church of its responsibility to maintain their own pastor. It is sad to see so much abuse and excess.

[JerryNumbers]

The spirit of Laodicea has invaded our churches. Too many Bible College grads don't want to suffer for Christ's sake. They want their nice little kingdom to pay them a nice fat paycheck, with all of the amenities - housing, cars, retirement, etc.
However, preaching and pastoring are a God-given CALLING, which brings much sacrifice, self-denial, hardship, and suffering. We are to be like Christ, and Christ said that the servant is not above the master.
So I agree that too many Career-oriented "pastors" have lost this vision of God's calling, and have bought into the Laodicean/Charismatic "wealth and prosperity" teaching.
This does NOT relieve the church of its responsibility to maintain their own pastor. It is sad to see so much abuse and excess.

I agree, yet many of the Bible Colleges them self, & their teachers are ruining many that may become preachers.

[Old Regular]

I agree Jerry.

Not to be critical of anyone. But, I asked a pastor (who had church hopped to get higher compensation) when did compensation become filthy lucre? He didn't give me an answer and hasn't spoken to me since. I figured out the answer by his actions.

[John81]

I agree Jerry.

Not to be critical of anyone. But, I asked a pastor (who had church hopped to get higher compensation) when did compensation become filthy lucre? He didn't give me an answer and hasn't spoken to me since. I figured out the answer by his actions.

Yes, I would say he answered pretty clearly!

[robmac68]

This is my first post/reply and I hope it doesn't get me kicked off the forum. I have had personal opinions/beliefs on this subject and they have always leaned towards the belief of "Standing Firm in Christ." I see his belief is not too popular so I guess my won't be either. I do keep an open mind about all my beilefs because how am I to grow if I don't believe I can learn different from my beliefs to grow. I do not want to lean on my own understanding, therefore my open mind.

My sister and her husband are missionaries to Mongolia. When he told me he was called to be a missionary, I asked him what his next steps were. He told me he needed to get his finances in order and pay off some bills so he would be debt free. He also told me he was going to college for four years. After he did this, he went on deputation for another year and a half to 2 years. If memory serves me correctly, this took close to 6 or 7 years. All I could think about was when Jesus called a man and he said "let me go bury my father first." How long could it take to bury his father? What did Jesus say to the man? Let the dead bury the dead. This made me believe that when you are "called" that you drop everything and go. This is what I got from God's word. Jesus didn't have a place to lay his head. How did Jesus's ministry survive without the monetary support from local churches? I believe Amy Carmichael had this belief too. Her ministry survived on faith, not deputation. She had full faith in God to provide her needs. Isn't that what were told in His Word. If he clothes the lily's and feeds the sparrows, how much more will He do for us? If someone has the beleif to leave it in God's hands, how can we say anything about that person's faith?
My brother-in-law learned alot while going to school and on deputation. I am not talking about subjects he learned in college, but life lessons. He experienced the splitting of a church and school. He experienced a pastor from his past coming out against him and actually driving to my brother-in-laws school to protest to the President about my brother-in-law. There was alot more he experienced that helped shape him into the "strong" man of God he is today. Was this God's will? If he would have just "jumped" would he have missed alot of life's lessons that helped shape him? Maybe God lead him first to go to school and, second, to go into the field. If it is God who is leading a man, can we not have faith that God will lead the man where he needs to go?
Someone replied to "Standing Firm in Christ", who stated he will no longer reply to this thread, that he actually couldn't reply because of basically being hit up side the head with the Bible. Could someone please hit me upside the head with the Bible so I can know what to believe. I think "SFiC's" belief sounds more like Christ telling the man to let the dead bury the dead.

[Pastor Matt]

This is my first post/reply and I hope it doesn't get me kicked off the forum. I have had personal opinions/beliefs on this subject and they have always leaned towards the belief of "Standing Firm in Christ." I see his belief is not too popular so I guess my won't be either. I do keep an open mind about all my beilefs because how am I to grow if I don't believe I can learn different from my beliefs to grow. I do not want to lean on my own understanding, therefore my open mind.

Settle down there sparky. Folks don't get kicked off for the posts that are posted, but rather the attitude that they are posted in. If all your posts are like your first, then you have no reason to worry. I may not agree, but I respect you. Welcome to Online Baptist.

[Seth Doty]

This is my first post/reply and I hope it doesn't get me kicked off the forum. I have had personal opinions/beliefs on this subject and they have always leaned towards the belief of "Standing Firm in Christ." I see his belief is not too popular so I guess my won't be either. I do keep an open mind about all my beilefs because how am I to grow if I don't believe I can learn different from my beliefs to grow. I do not want to lean on my own understanding, therefore my open mind.

My sister and her husband are missionaries to Mongolia. When he told me he was called to be a missionary, I asked him what his next steps were. He told me he needed to get his finances in order and pay off some bills so he would be debt free. He also told me he was going to college for four years. After he did this, he went on deputation for another year and a half to 2 years. If memory serves me correctly, this took close to 6 or 7 years. All I could think about was when Jesus called a man and he said "let me go bury my father first." How long could it take to bury his father? What did Jesus say to the man? Let the dead bury the dead. This made me believe that when you are "called" that you drop everything and go. This is what I got from God's word. Jesus didn't have a place to lay his head. How did Jesus's ministry survive without the monetary support from local churches? I believe Amy Carmichael had this belief too. Her ministry survived on faith, not deputation. She had full faith in God to provide her needs. Isn't that what were told in His Word. If he clothes the lily's and feeds the sparrows, how much more will He do for us? If someone has the beleif to leave it in God's hands, how can we say anything about that person's faith?
My brother-in-law learned alot while going to school and on deputation. I am not talking about subjects he learned in college, but life lessons. He experienced the splitting of a church and school. He experienced a pastor from his past coming out against him and actually driving to my brother-in-laws school to protest to the President about my brother-in-law. There was alot more he experienced that helped shape him into the "strong" man of God he is today. Was this God's will? If he would have just "jumped" would he have missed alot of life's lessons that helped shape him? Maybe God lead him first to go to school and, second, to go into the field. If it is God who is leading a man, can we not have faith that God will lead the man where he needs to go?
Someone replied to "Standing Firm in Christ", who stated he will no longer reply to this thread, that he actually couldn't reply because of basically being hit up side the head with the Bible. Could someone please hit me upside the head with the Bible so I can know what to believe. I think "SFiC's" belief sounds more like Christ telling the man to let the dead bury the dead.

If someone is feeling that God is calling them to do it that way then fine, I don't have a problem with it as long as they have the fortitude to actually stick with it. What I have "heard" a time or two is that it is not at all uncommon for people to think that God is calling them to do it that way, start out, yet when they actually get to the field and are confronted by harsh realities very often they either chicken out all together & go home or they find another missionary who does have support, move to his area, and sort of be a financial drain on him since they don't have much/any support and he can't really refuse to help with their needs...

Point is, this approach may occasionally be God's will for some people, but more often than not it is a method tried by those who are confusing presumption with faith. I would not categorically say it is wrong to do things this way, but I would warn anyone thinking of it to be very, very sure that it truly is Gods will for them and that they are not acting out of presumption or haste.

[JerryNumbers]

This is my first post/reply and I hope it doesn't get me kicked off the forum. I have had personal opinions/beliefs on this subject and they have always leaned towards the belief of "Standing Firm in Christ." I see his belief is not too popular so I guess my won't be either. I do keep an open mind about all my beilefs because how am I to grow if I don't believe I can learn different from my beliefs to grow. I do not want to lean on my own understanding, therefore my open mind.

My sister and her husband are missionaries to Mongolia. When he told me he was called to be a missionary, I asked him what his next steps were. He told me he needed to get his finances in order and pay off some bills so he would be debt free. He also told me he was going to college for four years. After he did this, he went on deputation for another year and a half to 2 years. If memory serves me correctly, this took close to 6 or 7 years. All I could think about was when Jesus called a man and he said "let me go bury my father first." How long could it take to bury his father? What did Jesus say to the man? Let the dead bury the dead. This made me believe that when you are "called" that you drop everything and go. This is what I got from God's word. Jesus didn't have a place to lay his head. How did Jesus's ministry survive without the monetary support from local churches? I believe Amy Carmichael had this belief too. Her ministry survived on faith, not deputation. She had full faith in God to provide her needs. Isn't that what were told in His Word. If he clothes the lily's and feeds the sparrows, how much more will He do for us? If someone has the beleif to leave it in God's hands, how can we say anything about that person's faith?
My brother-in-law learned alot while going to school and on deputation. I am not talking about subjects he learned in college, but life lessons. He experienced the splitting of a church and school. He experienced a pastor from his past coming out against him and actually driving to my brother-in-laws school to protest to the President about my brother-in-law. There was alot more he experienced that helped shape him into the "strong" man of God he is today. Was this God's will? If he would have just "jumped" would he have missed alot of life's lessons that helped shape him? Maybe God lead him first to go to school and, second, to go into the field. If it is God who is leading a man, can we not have faith that God will lead the man where he needs to go?
Someone replied to "Standing Firm in Christ", who stated he will no longer reply to this thread, that he actually couldn't reply because of basically being hit up side the head with the Bible. Could someone please hit me upside the head with the Bible so I can know what to believe. I think "SFiC's" belief sounds more like Christ telling the man to let the dead bury the dead.

Well, we can say honestly, that only a few people practice true faith in God to provide. How can one have true faith with their pocketbook packed with enough money to last them a year? And I admit, I'm a very poor excuse at trusting God for tomorrow.


Mt 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Mt 6:25 ¶ Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Mt 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Mt 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Mt 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mt 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mt 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
Mt 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Mt 6:32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Mt 6:34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

PS. Please don't make another post saying what I put a line though. To me, when a person does that they're tempting the owner, or moderator, when you agree with or disagree with some one just say so, them just state your beliefs & why you believe that, & all will be well. :)

[Calvary]

This is my first post/reply and I hope it doesn't get me kicked off the forum. I have had personal opinions/beliefs on this subject and they have always leaned towards the belief of "Standing Firm in Christ." I see his belief is not too popular so I guess my won't be either. I do keep an open mind about all my beilefs because how am I to grow if I don't believe I can learn different from my beliefs to grow. I do not want to lean on my own understanding, therefore my open mind.

My sister and her husband are missionaries to Mongolia. When he told me he was called to be a missionary, I asked him what his next steps were. He told me he needed to get his finances in order and pay off some bills so he would be debt free. He also told me he was going to college for four years. After he did this, he went on deputation for another year and a half to 2 years. If memory serves me correctly, this took close to 6 or 7 years. All I could think about was when Jesus called a man and he said "let me go bury my father first." How long could it take to bury his father? What did Jesus say to the man? Let the dead bury the dead. This made me believe that when you are "called" that you drop everything and go. This is what I got from God's word. Jesus didn't have a place to lay his head. How did Jesus's ministry survive without the monetary support from local churches? I believe Amy Carmichael had this belief too. Her ministry survived on faith, not deputation. She had full faith in God to provide her needs. Isn't that what were told in His Word. If he clothes the lily's and feeds the sparrows, how much more will He do for us? If someone has the beleif to leave it in God's hands, how can we say anything about that person's faith?
My brother-in-law learned alot while going to school and on deputation. I am not talking about subjects he learned in college, but life lessons. He experienced the splitting of a church and school. He experienced a pastor from his past coming out against him and actually driving to my brother-in-laws school to protest to the President about my brother-in-law. There was alot more he experienced that helped shape him into the "strong" man of God he is today. Was this God's will? If he would have just "jumped" would he have missed alot of life's lessons that helped shape him? Maybe God lead him first to go to school and, second, to go into the field. If it is God who is leading a man, can we not have faith that God will lead the man where he needs to go?
Someone replied to "Standing Firm in Christ", who stated he will no longer reply to this thread, that he actually couldn't reply because of basically being hit up side the head with the Bible. Could someone please hit me upside the head with the Bible so I can know what to believe. I think "SFiC's" belief sounds more like Christ telling the man to let the dead bury the dead.

So which would it be friend? Did your brother in law benefit from his schooling or should he have just run off somewhere because the Lord told him to? I don't think your that sure either. I don't think any of us could know for sure.

I did say that SFIC woudn't answer because the Bible had slapped his mouth shut. Not that I beat him in the head with a Bible.

Read ahead and you tell me honestly if the Lord has designed a plan to care for his full time workers.

Paul gives 3 natural examples of the expectations that any logical person would have as to what extent their relation with their work should provide for them. He says Have we not power to eat and drink? In other words, is his expectation to have his physical needs met out of sync with God’s will? Should he be expected to grind out a living while dedicating his entire life to the preaching of the gospel?
He further states Have we not power to lead about a sister a wife…? If a man should be expected to provide for himself and then in addition meet the needs of the Lords work it would certainly be an unfair burden that he marry and lead a young lady into a life of uncertainty since the Lord also said it is the infidel that does not provide for his family. So his question is immedialty in the context of a honest expectation to raise a family, and put shoes on his children's feet. Interstingly Standing Firm has used Matthew 10 as a proof text to discredit the idea that a pastor or missionary should not seek any financial help from churches as part of their missionary program. The same text says that one should leave their shoes behind as well. How does that relate to the fact that Paul says he has the power (the right) to lead about a wife, which by implication leads to children, and if Standing Firm is correct, he has effectively just contradicted himself. According to this man's seriously fautly hermenuetic, pastor's children should be shoeless. Or, perhaps, the more likely conclusion is that Standing Firm is out in the weeds on this.

Paul then gives 3 examples of the logical answer to his rhetorical question.
1. A soldier. Does he buy his own bullets? Does he buy his own uniform? Does he work a fulltime job and then also in addition work full time to protect his country men as well? Do you see the logical answer? Of course you do., Only a crook would not see it.
2. A farmer. Does he work the field and not eat the corn? Does he work the field full time and then also work at another job to provide for his family, or isn’t it just plain common sense to see that he has every right to receive the fruit from his labors.
3. A shepherd (or cattleman). Does he raise cattle and then work a fulltime job elsewhere to buy steaks at the market?

Paul now takes these common sense applications and applies the principle to a man in full time ministry.

First he quotes scripture to back his claim of common sense. Say I these things as a man? or
saith not the law the same also? So it’s not just a simple matter of logic, it’s a binding principle
from scripture. In fact, Paul quotes the place of the law that he refers to and asks another
rhetorical question. For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of
the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for
our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written:
Is the animal the object for whose sake the law was written? Not at all.
God does care for animals, (Psalms 36:6; Matthew 10:29), but the welfare of man is in view here by Paul as well as the original intent of the Law of Moses.
He says in plain 6^th grade English that a man is entitled to partake in that which he labors. No one works for free. Not you as an employee in the world, and not the God called man who labors in the ministry. This is a principle of the Lord. The laborer is worthy of his hire.

So then, has God designed a system in which God’s full time ministers are to be cared for, having their physical needs met and their lifestyles kept up to a standard of God’s grace?

Yes.

I have yet to hear a Biblical correction of this passage amnd it's plain implications.

God bless,
Calvary Edited April 2, 2012 by Calvary

[Wilchbla]

I would think that the Lord would want a missionary to seek financial support from various churches. This would only lead to more believers being blessed via their financial support of the missionary. I just can't see how someone can think this is unscriptural or lacking faith. To me it's not only smart but takes faith to carry out. It's a way that everyone can partake in that particular work of God.

Like I've said before, I'm a former Mormon and my parents are still Mormon and the main reason the LDS church is one of the fastest growing religions in the world is because of their intense missionary work. And their missionaries have every need taken care of by the Mormon church so they can focus completely on their missionary work (there is great accountability and frugal living among their missionaries also). They far out do the Baptists or any other denomination in this area.

So even if it could be argued that that particular missionary may not be living by faith, which I disagree with, it's still the smartest way to get the gospel out to the largest amount of people.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Wilchbla

[LindaR]

Read the story of Adoniram Judson...he was in Burma for 6 years before he got his first convert. Was he living by faith?

[Pastorj]

Calvary,

I would like to say thank you for your clear position.

As to this subject:
My only concern in the area of missions is how much a missionary today is forced to raise by their board. I was talking to one missionary going to Papua New Guinea. He was going to a jungle and another missionary had told him that he didn't need to raise very much (About $1000 mnth after Insurances and being able to put aside money for traveling to and from. His board told him that because he had 4 children, he had to raise almost $6000/mnth. They suggested that he use the extra to hire people to help his wife do laundry, watch the children, etc so she could be involved in the ministry. My statement to him was, "You are going to hire a nanny!". He said, "no, just a helper or two around the house.

I have no problem with a missionary raising support and I have been involved in faith promise missions for 30+ years. I will not support a missionary though that has hired servants in his home. I have friends in the jungles of Venezuela and there support level is far less than the board says they need. He told me that he just doesn't need what the board tells him he needs for a 3rd world country.

[John81]

I've read of missionaries in such positions and it can lead to problems. Some of them become accustomed to the extra money and the lavish lifestyle they are able to live over there. One missionary, in India I believe, had what would be considered a mansion over there and also two vechicles in an area where most people didn't even have one. He had an office in the city but rarely went there. He had several hired servants who tended to their every need. Not only did greed and other temptations overtake them, but their ministry was hurt by them living like kings among the severely poor and needy.