Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) Sorry Calvary, but in Romans 15 Paul is not asking for money. He is trusting that he will be supported, but he is not asking. And notice he did not go to the Romans assembly asking for money. Another point of interest is that Paul never made it to Spain. And Paul did not ask them to send him into the missionary field... he was already a missionary. The fact remains... there is not one Scripture verse in the entire New Testament where one who was called into the missionary field went from Church to Church asking for money, contrary to the practices of missionaries today. It is quite evident that it is not I who is hacking Scripture. Paul asked the Romans to "BRING" him on his journey, not to "SEND" him. When you bring something, you accompany it. Also notice Paul said, "bring me on my journey," not "pay for my housing, my living". Paul worked for his means of living. Edited April 6, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anon Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 StandingFirm...explain the Levites....they received no inheritance or anything...they lived on borrowed land and they ate the food that others brought them. They owned nothing but relied on everyone else. To me, that is also a pattern which God follows for the church. Often pastors do not own a home of their own...they live in a home owned by the church. Often a pastor has no personal investments or retirement...they rely on the church. Pastors voluntarily give up the opportunity to find a lucrative job or to own a beautiful house to follow God's call and be at the mercy of what the church can afford to provide. Tell me that's not faith and sacrifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anon Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 BTW StandingFirm....are you even a pastor? Or are you a disgruntled church member who does not like giving towards the salary of your pastor.....? If you are a pastor, how do you earn your money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 (edited) Comparing the Israelites bringing tithes to the Levites to people asking money so they can live in another land is comparing apples to oranges. The Levites did not ask for money, nor did they ask for food. The Israelites were commanded by God to give tithes to the Levites. If you can provide Scripture that states that God commands missionaries to ask people for money, I will change my beliefs concerning the matter. As yet, you have not. If God puts on my heart to give to a mission work, I will give. He has in the past, and I have obeyed. The missionary didn't have to beg me to give him money. I think I had already explained earlier that I pastored for eight years and that I never received a salary from my Church. Apparently you missed that. God always met my need, I didn't have to beg for it to be met. And like the Apostle Paul, I worked with my hands to earn my living. I had a job building computers for half of my pastorate. The other Construction Laborer. Edited April 6, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 If God ever tells me to go back to Africa, I will ask Him for the means to get there. I will depend on Him to provide the means. It would look ridiculous for me to have God say, "Go back to Africa and work amongst the Libyan's (or any other tribe of that country) and then go tell people God is sending me to Africa, now it is your responsibility to give me the money to get there, to rent or purchase property, to buy my food and clothes, to pay for my transportation, and whatever other needs I may have. The one sent by God should rely on God to lay it on the hearts of man to meet needs or to minister in any way. Paul, when he was brought to Salvation on the Damascus Road, went to Ananias because God sent him. But we also read that God spoke to Ananias telling him of Paul's need of being ministered to. Paul did not have to send for Ananias. God lets us know when we need to minister to others. He doesn't need beggars. The saints at Jerusalem were not told by the Apostles to sell their properties and lay it at the Apostle's feet, they did it on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anon Posted April 6, 2012 Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 The Levites did not have to "ask" for money because God already commanded it...worked it into the plan. God has also worked a pastor's payment into the "plan" of the local church. Pastors don't have to ask for money. Its already been commanded for a church to take care of those who are giving themselves to the Word and to prayer. I don't have a problem with those who work, but to be honest, you cannot give your full attention to your church if you also have regular jobs. You can't just stop and visit someone who is sick, or do a funeral, or help somebody last minute, if you have a commitment to a job. Of course sometimes churches have no other choice, but it is definitely God's plan for a church to do as much as possible. Our situation is somewhat in the middle. My husband receives a salary from the church and other benefits the church offers (we do not have our own home, it is a parsonage). However as our family has grown we have needed extra funds, for which I have been working, rather than asking the church for them. I suppose then that is not being a "keeper at home" but one must do what one must do. My husband did try working a part time job for a time, but he was not physically able to keep up with the demands of the church while also working the outside job. God calls different people to different tasks. What God called YOU to is not what He called us to. And nowhere in Scripture, outside of pulling things out of context, can you prove its wrong for a church to support its pastor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted April 6, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 6, 2012 Sorry Calvary, but in Romans 15 Paul is not asking for money. He is trusting that he will be supported, but he is not asking. And notice he did not go to the Romans assembly asking for money. Another point of interest is that Paul never made it to Spain. And Paul did not ask them to send him into the missionary field... he was already a missionary. The fact remains... there is not one Scripture verse in the entire New Testament where one who was called into the missionary field went from Church to Church asking for money, contrary to the practices of missionaries today. It is quite evident that it is not I who is hacking Scripture. Paul asked the Romans to "BRING" him on his journey, not to "SEND" him. When you bring something, you accompany it. Also notice Paul said, "bring me on my journey," not "pay for my housing, my living". Paul worked for his means of living. You obviously have no reading comprehension skills SF. Try reading the 2nd post of mine on this thread where I clearly and methodically demostrated from the scriptures what the fraseology of bring forward someone means. You must of missed that one. Paul is more than trusting, he is telling them what they ought to do as they have a duty to do so. You're still in the weeds on this and your infantile remarks show you care nothing for context. Paul's letter to the Corinthians plainly shows that his expectation is to be supported by the brethren. So now you admit that he expected it but didn ask for it? Stop straddling the fence. You state that like Paul you worked for a living while pastoring? If that was your choice, fine. But what a shame you denied the church to fulfill their duty to you. What a crock of self agrandizing to make yourself look humble. Paul refused a living from the Corinthians to instruct them through being humbled that they might be provoked to do what was right. Your position in no way equals that of Paul. Your position is only a mockery of the principles clearly laid out in the Bible. God bless, Calvary Anon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted April 7, 2012 Members Share Posted April 7, 2012 Calvary, you falsely accuse me. Your accusations are not Christlike at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted April 7, 2012 Members Share Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) In his book All Things New, New Testament professor Carl B. Hoch at Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, writes: In New Testament days, leaders were normally not paid. That is, money was given more as a gift than as an income or a salary. Leaders like Paul could receive money, but Paul chose not to receive any from the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 9:8-12). He wanted to serve without depending on any church for financial support. Churches had a responsibility to "reward the ox" (1 Timothy 5:17) and to share with those who taught (Galatians 6:6). But money was never to be the driving force of ministry (1 Peter 5:2). Unfortunately, churches today will not call a man until they feel they can support him, and some men will not seriously consider a call if the financial package is "inadequate" (All Things New [Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1995] p.240). Sadly, Hoch is correct. Many will not pastor a Church unless they get a certain amount of money from its congregation. How sad, to refuse to equip the saints because of one's personal greed. Edited April 7, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Standing Firm In Christ Posted April 7, 2012 Members Share Posted April 7, 2012 (edited) In Acts 20:33-35, Paul sets an example for those who would serve as Church leaders. (He is addressing Church leaders, as is evident when he specifically says "overseers" earlier in the chapter) They were not to be covetous of riches or material possessions (v.33). They were to be in a financially stable enough to meet their own needs and also the needs of others by working with their hands (v.34). Church leaders who worked as Paul did were able to both help the weak and sick as live the words of Jesus who said, "It is more blessed to give than to receive" (v.35). When Paul says, "I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak" (v.35), it is clear that he himself was being an example for them to follow. Makes no sense for Paul to set such an example if they were to be fully dependent on the congregation. Paul taught them to give, yet they would rather ignore Paul's example and do things their own way. In 1 Thessalonians, we see Paul giving the same instruction to the Church at Thessalonika as he did in Acts... that the leaders were to work for their living, not being a burden on the congregation. Edited April 7, 2012 by Standing Firm In Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted April 7, 2012 Members Share Posted April 7, 2012 In his book All Things New, New Testament professor Carl B. Hoch at Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, writes: Sadly, Hoch is correct. Many will not pastor a Church unless they get a certain amount of money from its congregation. How sad, to refuse to equip the saints because of one's personal greed. One of the questions I've seen come up time and again is just how much should a pastor receive for his living expenses. In this area the pastors tend to make more than an average salary and are considered well off. Even so, many pastors have come and gone because they want more and jump at the first offer of a larger paycheck from some other church. One area pastor who makes about twice what the average person does per year, threatened to leave the church if the church board didn't approve increases in a retirement fund. What should a pastors pay be based upon? While the pastors in this area are not becoming wealthy, they are making a very good living, well above most others, and it's common to hear people comment upon much money the pastors make and wonder why so many pastors still complain about what they make, the hours they put in, etc. Then, of course, there are the extremes, there are churches which refuse to provide a pastor with any compensation and those that make their pastors rich. In all this, the leading of the Lord should be followed in each case, but it certainly seems that more often these matters are dealt with in a worldly manner, not as the Lord leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Calvary Posted April 7, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 7, 2012 In his book All Things New, New Testament professor Carl B. Hoch at Grand Rapids Baptist Seminary, writes: Sadly, Hoch is correct. Many will not pastor a Church unless they get a certain amount of money from its congregation. How sad, to refuse to equip the saints because of one's personal greed. Your expert is as double minded as your appear to be. First he states that pastors were not payed. With no evidence to support that. None. Just his word. Then he states that Paul refused compensation from the Corinthians. That is exactly what I've called you on. You, with this other lacker of evidence take a historical point of ministry in the life of Paul and make it a doctrine. Paul did however recieve compensation from many churches, the which I've proved here several times and you still present your shallow argument that Paul's refusal of support from the Corinthian church was the norm instead of the obvious exception. Your so called expert than claims that it is the church's "responsability" to pay the "ox" and communicate (which by the way in Galatians clearly speaks of compensation) to the worker. So which is it? Nothing worse than hacks that talk out of both sides of their face. And in one paragraph no less. I have not maligned you in any way. I have merely quoted scripture to correct your basless debate and demostrated that you are a false teacher in this regard. You quote experts and commentaries while ignoring solid scriptural arguments in order to foster your false teaching that a pastor should always work with his hands to provide for his family. If a pastor should so decide to work for his living apart from the church's care, fine. But to declare that that is the Biblical model is to state a lie. God bless, Calvary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Invicta Posted April 7, 2012 Members Share Posted April 7, 2012 A survey of pastors pay in some churches found that pay rates varied from nil to quite a lot. The FIEC recommends a pay rate for pastors to be about the scale of a senior teacher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anon Posted April 7, 2012 Members Share Posted April 7, 2012 One of the questions I've seen come up time and again is just how much should a pastor receive for his living expenses. In this area the pastors tend to make more than an average salary and are considered well off. Even so, many pastors have come and gone because they want more and jump at the first offer of a larger paycheck from some other church. One area pastor who makes about twice what the average person does per year, threatened to leave the church if the church board didn't approve increases in a retirement fund. What should a pastors pay be based upon? While the pastors in this area are not becoming wealthy, they are making a very good living, well above most others, and it's common to hear people comment upon much money the pastors make and wonder why so many pastors still complain about what they make, the hours they put in, etc. Then, of course, there are the extremes, there are churches which refuse to provide a pastor with any compensation and those that make their pastors rich. In all this, the leading of the Lord should be followed in each case, but it certainly seems that more often these matters are dealt with in a worldly manner, not as the Lord leads. As I said, I believe a pastor should basically "make" about the median income of the church families. Our church is about like that. We don't make as much as the richest people in our church, and we aren't as poor as the poorest people in our church. We live "median". And that "median" would change depending on the cost of living of whatever area a person lived. And the nice thing about a "local independent church" is that its nobody else's business how much the pastor makes or does not make. That's between each church and God. I find that most of the times in IFB churches, the problem is not size or pay. Usually high paid pastors are in the convention or modern churches. I have rarely met an IFB pastor that made "too much money". I've met plenty that are being underpaid. Calvary and Seth Doty 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JerryNumbers Posted April 7, 2012 Members Share Posted April 7, 2012 Just can't stand the fact that some people believe that God provides for those He sends, can you? I have not read the many post after this one. But your correct, today there be few men that can serve God if they don't have a pocketful of money to trust in. And some do not believe a man can be a God called missionary unless he has a pocket full of money to pay his was, & generally they expect him to spend much time going to churches to beg for it. But when you start really talking about true faith, going out to serve our God without a pocket full of money, everyone thinks you have lost your mind having gone completely insane. Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. And I know bringing this verse up that its impossible to please God without faith will not put me in favor with those that oppose you on those topic. Yet I will not argue with them on this, no amount of arguing will help anyone understand unconditional faith in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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