Suicide and salvation?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I'm not quick at all to assume he was saved. It's clear in the verse that if he died his spirit would be saved, though his flesh was delivered to Satan.

He was saved! Also, he repented and was restored to the church. You don't restore (as in bring back into fellowship) a lost person.


You're grasping at straws and ignoring the clear evidence against your position.

I am not grasping at straws. Why in the world would the Church be instructed to cast a saved member out? It is clear the man was not saved.

Paul told Timothy that the Word of God was given for reproof, for doctrine, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. Why? That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. The reproof, doctrine, correction and instruction is for the man of God.

1 Corinthians 5 is the only place that Paul instructs the Church to put someone out. In Galatians, the fallen brother is to be restored by the Church... not thrown out!

The man was thrown out because the man was lost and did not belong in the Church.

Where did Paul say to restore that man of 1 Corinthians 5 to the Church? I have heard many preachers claim it is 2 Corinthians 2, but I find no evidence of that man being the same one as the one being ousted. Matter of fact, the Church is not told to restore the man in 2 Corinthians 2, but rather to receive him into their fellowship. The man had been sorely inflicted with punishment by many and Paul told the Church to act contrary to the ones who had inflicted the punishment. I don't believe that he was speaking of the same man.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

^{Judges 16:28}And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.
²⁹And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.
³⁰And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

I am well aware of the passage. Notice Samson did not have the strength on his own? He asked God "strengthen me". For what purpose? "that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my eyes". And God strengthened him and he cried out to God, "Let me die". Samson was not committing suicide... he was executing judgment on the Philistines. And he asked God to take his life.

[heartstrings]

I am well aware of the passage. Notice Samson did not have the strength on his own? He asked God "strengthen me". For what purpose? "that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my eyes". And God strengthened him and he cried out to God, "Let me die". Samson was not committing suicide... he was executing judgment on the Philistines. And he asked God to take his life.

Simple question:
WHO PUSHED the pillars?

[HappyChristian]

I disagree. If God is calling someone to do a work for Him, He is going to provide a way for that person to do that work. Where God guides... God provides. The girl committed suicide out of an act of rebellion... both toward her father, and also toward God... if indeed God had called her to do a work.

The girl did not have the Comforter guiding her into all truth, bringing her mind to rest in times of hardship... that is obvious.

Well, standing, your first paragraph shows your ignorance of the situation, but that's okay, because I didn't give all of the details, nor will I. There was no question about God providing, on anyone's part. Her suicide wasn't a rebellion against her father or against God. It was in despair because of what was going on. And it isn't up to any of us to question whether or not God was calling her to a work.

She did have the Comforter. But she had taken her eyes off of the Lord due to things that had happened. And anyone who has ever done that (no-one on this page can say they haven't at one time or another) knows that taking our eyes off the Lord brings distress: to our minds, to our hearts, to the very innermost of our being. You are not God, and therefore cannot say she didn't have the Comforter. I'll introduce you to her when we get to Heaven, where she is now.

[Invicta]

My problem with Samson was that he was a judge of israel, but he did not seem to do much judging.

[JerryNumbers]

Thanks Jerry for your down-to-earth post. I believe your most valuable asset when it comes to this forum is your experience and wisdom when it comes to these things on a pratical matter. Many times we (or at least I do) get caught up in all the doctrinal minutia and arguments and sometimes lose sight of the pratical side of things.


SFIC,

You keep dodging things. Anyone can take a dogmatic stand on something, but when people challenge you on that stand and you just ignore the difficult questions no one respects that stand. In post #114 I pointed out three major problems with your stand but you completly ignored two of them and only half-heartedly addressed one. You also completly ignored the following statement (this will be the third time I've posted it for you):


"Even if they were lost, the young man delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh was not. He had sex with his father's wife and was saved! Paul's solution was to deliver the young man unto Satan - not to go to Hell but to die. God would have killed him if he had not repented, and before you tell me that the man was guaranteed to repent because 'the sheep always follow the Shepherd in the end,' go back and read this passage under point six:

I Cor. 11:29-30, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”

Thank you.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Simple question:
WHO PUSHED the pillars?

God did... through His vessel Samson Edited December 20, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Well, standing, your first paragraph shows your ignorance of the situation, but that's okay, because I didn't give all of the details, nor will I. There was no question about God providing, on anyone's part. Her suicide wasn't a rebellion against her father or against God. It was in despair because of what was going on. And it isn't up to any of us to question whether or not God was calling her to a work.

She did have the Comforter. But she had taken her eyes off of the Lord due to things that had happened. And anyone who has ever done that (no-one on this page can say they haven't at one time or another) knows that taking our eyes off the Lord brings distress: to our minds, to our hearts, to the very innermost of our being. You are not God, and therefore cannot say she didn't have the Comforter. I'll introduce you to her when we get to Heaven, where she is now.

HC,
Your post concerning the girl stated that she committed suicide because her father would not let her do something she felt God wanted her to do. Whether you want to admit it or not, that would be an act of rebellion to her father. Scripture says "Children, obey your parents in the Lord for this is right." If her father forbad her to do something, she should have obeyed... unless it was forbidding her to serve the Lord.

And if the Lord told her to do something, and she did not, she was in fact in rebellion just as Jonah was in rebellion when he got on the ship for Tarshish. And suicide is an ultimate act of rebellion against God. It is rejecting God to obey another.

I highly doubt I will see any suicides in heaven. They have murdered themselves, following the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy instead of following the giver of life and peace.

[HappyChristian]

Standing, if you read my post again, you will see that I said it was the straw that broke the camel's back...meaning there is more to the story. She was 19, therefore no longer really a child, and her father forbade her from doing what she believed God wanted her to do. So, either she was rebelling against her father for telling her she couldn't obey God, or she was rebelling against God in not doing it, according to your scenario. Let's completely leave out total despair because of things happening (about which you do not know). There are only two ways it could be in your book. But you are wrong. Plain and simple. And you can doubt all you want that you will see any suicides in Heaven. Again, I will introduce you to her when we get there. =)

[JerryNumbers]

I'm going to try and make this my final post under this topic. You fail to accept context of the Holy Scriptures & contest of the post I have made & we are going no where.

There is only one sin that Jesus' blood cannot cover, that is unbelief, yet it seems you add at least one more, suicide.

I sure hope you have food for thought on this subject.

[John81]

I'm going to try and make this my final post under this topic. You fail to accept context of the Holy Scriptures & contest of the post I have made & we are going no where.

There is only one sin that Jesus' blood cannot cover, that is unbelief, yet it seems you add at least one more, suicide.

I sure hope you have food for thought on this subject.

True. Also, if a Christian commits suicide that's a one time sin, it's not a sin they have been continuing in. Scripture is clear, Christians can and do sin. A Christian can commit the sin of suicide just as they can commit any other sin whether it be lying, killing, stealing, etc. The fact they died while commiting the sin of suicide no more means they were not saved than the person who dies while commiting adultery or running from police to try and avoid a ticket.

Not all Christians are at the same maturity level in Christ and some will commit sins others wouldn't, some know more of the Word to rely upon, some have drawn closer to the Lord through prayer than others, some have a better network of Christian friends/family for support, etc.

[heartstrings]

God did... through His vessel Samson

And you preach to people? If you do, the sad part is that there are people who will listen to you.

I will try to help you one more time.
#1, Samson wanted to die "let me die with the Philistines" he said
#2. Samson asked to be led to the pillars(he was blind)
#3 Samson asked God for the strength to push the pillars (which God obliged)
#4 Then Samson "bowed with all his might".....Samson wanted to die...Samson wanted to push the pillars...God granted the strength and Samson pushed the pillars Edited December 21, 2011 by heartstrings

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I'm going to try and make this my final post under this topic. You fail to accept context of the Holy Scriptures & contest of the post I have made & we are going no where.

There is only one sin that Jesus' blood cannot cover, that is unbelief, yet it seems you add at least one more, suicide.

I sure hope you have food for thought on this subject.

The suicide obviously doesn't believe Jesus solves any problem. There is none too big or too small that Christ can't take care of. Peter instructed the reader to cast all his cares on the Lord.

Regardless, the final act was rejection of Christ and depending on another means to remedy problems. and because of that, the suicide, like Judas Iscariat, goes to his own place.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

True. Also, if a Christian commits suicide that's a one time sin, it's not a sin they have been continuing in. Scripture is clear, Christians can and do sin. A Christian can commit the sin of suicide just as they can commit any other sin whether it be lying, killing, stealing, etc. The fact they died while commiting the sin of suicide no more means they were not saved than the person who dies while commiting adultery or running from police to try and avoid a ticket.

Not all Christians are at the same maturity level in Christ and some will commit sins others wouldn't, some know more of the Word to rely upon, some have drawn closer to the Lord through prayer than others, some have a better network of Christian friends/family for support, etc.

That they rejected Christ and depended on another method of problem solving is sad indeed. The Comforter was not their comforter, the Comforter was not their consoler, even though Jesus said that that is what the Comforter would do. I guess that means Jesus lied to them. Wow.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

And you preach to people? If you do, the sad part is that there are people who will listen to you.

I will try to help you one more time.
#1, Samson wanted to die "let me die with the Philistines" he said
#2. Samson asked to be led to the pillars(he was blind)
#3 Samson asked God for the strength to push the pillars (which God obliged)
#4 Then Samson "bowed with all his might".....Samson wanted to die...Samson wanted to push the pillars...God granted the strength and Samson pushed the pillars

Even sadder, that some do not listen. Suicide is murder. No murderer has eternal life in him. All murderers will have their part in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone.