Suicide and salvation?

[Standing Firm In Christ]

10. Assurance of Salvation.

I Tim. 4:2, “Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;”

Some people aren’t confused about salvation as described in chapter one of this book. Instead, some Christians have scorned the grace of God and lived their lives in sin. When this happens, the Holy Spirit is quenched (He’s still there, you just can’t hear Him anymore) and the man’s conscience is seared. Very often when this happens, the assurance of salvation is gone. “How could I be saved and do…” This isn’t a matter of God taking something away from you; it’s just one of the many natural consequences of sin.

As you can see, a Christian does stand to lose a lot, or miss out on some pretty wonderful things if he lives his life for himself. Paul warned the Romans to not sin that “grace may abound.” God is merciful, but He’s not one to be trifled with.

Who is speaking lies in hypocrisy? Those who depart from the faith and give heed to doctrines of devils. This is not saying they were saved and lost their Salvation. Matter of fact, it proves that they were not saved at all. They turned from the truth to believe a lie. Those who are saved are guided by the Holy Spirit.

Not one of your points prove a saved person can come to the point of committing suicide or will commit suicide.... not one!

[Standing Firm In Christ]

2. Saved people never backslide on a permanent basis, there are sins that a Christian is unable to commit, and a Christian will always get right at some point.

Here are the problems I have with the second view:

1. What sins are a Christian incapable of committing? Where does the Bible lay this out? If a Christian and a lost man both have the same old nature in them (which they do) then isn't a saved man who is completely following the flesh just as capable of sins as a lost man?

A Christian will never commit suicide. God disciplines them and brings them to right standing again.

2. Where does the Bible state that a Christian will always get right? If a Christian will always get right, why does God kill Christians who refuse to get right (see points 5, 6, and 8)? Obviously there are times that a Christian backslides and doesn't get right! Ananias and Sapphira, Demas, Diotrephes... who knows, maybe even Hymenaeus and Alexander were saved??

I have already addressed these points. Hebrewws 12.reveals that God chastens those He loves. If any don't feel the chastening of the Lord, the Word of God reveals that they are bastards and not sons.

3. There is no clear and consistent standard when it comes to this teaching. No drunks are saved! But we'll ignore liars. No Christian will commit suicide... but he'll murder and cheat on his wife (David)? C'mon, this teaching is about as solid as the idea you can lose your salvation. Those who teach you can lose your salvation all have different rules on how to do it and no two of them agree. Certain sins will damn you, but NOT MY SINS!

The child of God may sin, but he will not continue in sin because God will chasten him. God chastened David through Nathan. By the way, David was not still living in adultery when Nathan rebuked him. The New Testament reveals that once a woman's husband is dead, the man the woman married is no longer an adulterer. Once Uriah died in battle, David could marry Bathsheba without being an adulterer. David's sin was great, but God chastened him... and he repented.

God always chastens those He loves. And those He chastens hear His voice and follow Him.

[LindaR]

Something to think about:

Isaiah 26:3 Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee

Philippians 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice.

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

[Brother Rick]

SFIC, you are way to quick to assume that the man in I Cor. 5 was lost. He was saved! If he died after being given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, his SPIRIT would have been saved. He was not lost. God was going to kill him if he had not repented. This fact destroys your theory that Christians always repent eventually. Your teaching is very flimsy. All these people who professed to be Christians were not? Every single one of them? Because they didn't endure to the end (sounds like Calvinism to me!)? When things start becoming a little “too convenient” I smell the strong scent of bologna. I don't buy what you’re saying and nobody else does either.

I don't buy the idea that God removes a Christian's free will at salvation - which is the end result of what you're saying. You might as well become a Calvinist and get it over with because that is where you're headed.

A drunk goes to Hell, even if he has a profession of faith - but not a liar (same verse in Revelation!). A man can be saved and commit murder, adultery, and even incest - but no Christian is capable of committing suicide?

Suicide is the greatest affront to God? Are you kidding me? Idolatry is the greatest affront to God, not suicide. How many stories of people who killed themselves while in dark depression or drug addiction would you have to hear before you understood that? If I came home to find my family raped and murdered I might commit suicide! Do you think I would do it out of a deep rebellion to God or because I felt hopeless and wanted out? To broad-brush suicide as the worst sin is so unbelievable. Honestly, biblically, God killed and judged more people over complaining and idolatry, and He spends much more time talking about how bad those sins are than any other sin. He hardly ever mentions suicide.

You are so incredibly off base, it's very, very sad. The saddest part about this is the stuff you are saying here can really hurt some people. For those that have loved ones who may have killed themselves, your words could be very hurtful. I think you need to really get into your Bible, prayer, some serious self-examination.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Rick Schworer

[heartstrings]

What happened to Samson was "muwth", not "ratsach" There is a difference. God does not want man committing suicide.

If you were standing under a ton of bricks and you knew that all you had to do was intentionally push two pillars aside to let it fall on you... yes sir, pushing those pillars would be suicide. If you can't get that, I see no point in wasting any more time on this one.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

SFIC, you are way to quick to assume that the man in I Cor. 5 was lost. He was saved! If he died after being given over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, his SPIRIT would have been saved. He was not lost. God was going to kill him if he had not repented. This fact destroys your theory that Christians always repent eventually. Your teaching is very flimsy. All these people who professed to be Christians were not? Every single one of them? Because they didn't endure to the end (sounds like Calvinism to me!)? When things start becoming a little “too convenient” I smell the strong scent of bologna. I don't buy what you’re saying and nobody else does either.

I don't buy the idea that God removes a Christian's free will at salvation - which is the end result of what you're saying. You might as well become a Calvinist and get it over with because that is where you're headed.

A drunk goes to Hell, even if he has a profession of faith - but not a liar (same verse in Revelation!). A man can be saved and commit murder, adultery, and even incest - but no Christian is capable of committing suicide?

Suicide is the greatest affront to God? Are you kidding me? Idolatry is the greatest affront to God, not suicide. How many stories of people who killed themselves while in dark depression or drug addiction would you have to hear before you understood that? If I came home to find my family raped and murdered I might commit suicide! Do you think I would do it out of a deep rebellion to God or because I felt hopeless and wanted out? To broad-brush suicide as the worst sin is so unbelievable. Honestly, biblically, God killed and judged more people over complaining and idolatry, and He spends much more time talking about how bad those sins are than any other sin. He hardly ever mentions suicide.

You are so incredibly off base, it's very, very sad. The saddest part about this is the stuff you are saying here can really hurt some people. For those that have loved ones who may have killed themselves, your words could be very hurtful. I think you need to really get into your Bible, prayer, some serious self-examination.

Rick, I could say you are way too quick to say the man was saved.

In Romans, Paul admonishes the reader to not continue in sin. (Romans 6:1-2). In Galatians, he exhorts the spiritual to restore one who has been overtaken in a fault. Paul would not have instructed the Church to turn a saved man over to the devil. The man was lost.

[Invicta]

Jerry, please go back and read my posts. I never said a saved person could lose his or her Salvation. I said some will prove that they never were saved to begin with.

Are you saying that a believer, who in a instant of dispair, for instance, jumps off a bridge, or falls under a tube train, is not saved?

[Brother Rick]

I'm not quick at all to assume he was saved. It's clear in the verse that if he died his spirit would be saved, though his flesh was delivered to Satan.

He was saved! Also, he repented and was restored to the church. You don't restore (as in bring back into fellowship) a lost person.


You're grasping at straws and ignoring the clear evidence against your position.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

If you were standing under a ton of bricks and you knew that all you had to do was intentionally push two pillars aside to let it fall on you... yes sir, pushing those pillars would be suicide. If you can't get that, I see no point in wasting any more time on this one.

If I pushed a ton of bricks, they would not fall unless God gave me the strength to do so.

The fact is, Samson was given the strength to do what he did and he asked God to let him die. Samson was not taking his own life, he was requesting God to take his life

[heartstrings]

If I pushed a ton of bricks, they would not fall unless God gave me the strength to do so.

The fact is, Samson was given the strength to do what he did and he asked God to let him die. Samson was not taking his own life, he was requesting God to take his life

^{Judges 16:28}And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.
²⁹And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.
³⁰And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

I'm not quick at all to assume he was saved. It's clear in the verse that if he died his spirit would be saved, though his flesh was delivered to Satan.

He was saved! Also, he repented and was restored to the church. You don't restore (as in bring back into fellowship) a lost person.


You're grasping at straws and ignoring the clear evidence against your position.

I am not grasping at straws. Why in the world would the Church be instructed to cast a saved member out? It is clear the man was not saved.

Paul told Timothy that the Word of God was given for reproof, for doctrine, for correction and for instruction in righteousness. Why? That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. The reproof, doctrine, correction and instruction is for the man of God.

1 Corinthians 5 is the only place that Paul instructs the Church to put someone out. In Galatians, the fallen brother is to be restored by the Church... not thrown out!

The man was thrown out because the man was lost and did not belong in the Church.

Where did Paul say to restore that man of 1 Corinthians 5 to the Church? I have heard many preachers claim it is 2 Corinthians 2, but I find no evidence of that man being the same one as the one being ousted. Matter of fact, the Church is not told to restore the man in 2 Corinthians 2, but rather to receive him into their fellowship. The man had been sorely inflicted with punishment by many and Paul told the Church to act contrary to the ones who had inflicted the punishment. I don't believe that he was speaking of the same man.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

^{Judges 16:28}And Samson called unto the LORD, and said, O Lord God, remember me, I pray thee, and strengthen me, I pray thee, only this once, O God, that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my two eyes.
²⁹And Samson took hold of the two middle pillars upon which the house stood, and on which it was borne up, of the one with his right hand, and of the other with his left.
³⁰And Samson said, Let me die with the Philistines. And he bowed himself with all his might; and the house fell upon the lords, and upon all the people that were therein. So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life.

I am well aware of the passage. Notice Samson did not have the strength on his own? He asked God "strengthen me". For what purpose? "that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my eyes". And God strengthened him and he cried out to God, "Let me die". Samson was not committing suicide... he was executing judgment on the Philistines. And he asked God to take his life.

[heartstrings]

I am well aware of the passage. Notice Samson did not have the strength on his own? He asked God "strengthen me". For what purpose? "that I may be at once avenged of the Philistines for my eyes". And God strengthened him and he cried out to God, "Let me die". Samson was not committing suicide... he was executing judgment on the Philistines. And he asked God to take his life.

Simple question:
WHO PUSHED the pillars?

[HappyChristian]

I disagree. If God is calling someone to do a work for Him, He is going to provide a way for that person to do that work. Where God guides... God provides. The girl committed suicide out of an act of rebellion... both toward her father, and also toward God... if indeed God had called her to do a work.

The girl did not have the Comforter guiding her into all truth, bringing her mind to rest in times of hardship... that is obvious.

Well, standing, your first paragraph shows your ignorance of the situation, but that's okay, because I didn't give all of the details, nor will I. There was no question about God providing, on anyone's part. Her suicide wasn't a rebellion against her father or against God. It was in despair because of what was going on. And it isn't up to any of us to question whether or not God was calling her to a work.

She did have the Comforter. But she had taken her eyes off of the Lord due to things that had happened. And anyone who has ever done that (no-one on this page can say they haven't at one time or another) knows that taking our eyes off the Lord brings distress: to our minds, to our hearts, to the very innermost of our being. You are not God, and therefore cannot say she didn't have the Comforter. I'll introduce you to her when we get to Heaven, where she is now.

[Invicta]

My problem with Samson was that he was a judge of israel, but he did not seem to do much judging.

[JerryNumbers]

Thanks Jerry for your down-to-earth post. I believe your most valuable asset when it comes to this forum is your experience and wisdom when it comes to these things on a pratical matter. Many times we (or at least I do) get caught up in all the doctrinal minutia and arguments and sometimes lose sight of the pratical side of things.


SFIC,

You keep dodging things. Anyone can take a dogmatic stand on something, but when people challenge you on that stand and you just ignore the difficult questions no one respects that stand. In post #114 I pointed out three major problems with your stand but you completly ignored two of them and only half-heartedly addressed one. You also completly ignored the following statement (this will be the third time I've posted it for you):


"Even if they were lost, the young man delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh was not. He had sex with his father's wife and was saved! Paul's solution was to deliver the young man unto Satan - not to go to Hell but to die. God would have killed him if he had not repented, and before you tell me that the man was guaranteed to repent because 'the sheep always follow the Shepherd in the end,' go back and read this passage under point six:

I Cor. 11:29-30, “For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30) For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.”

Thank you.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Simple question:
WHO PUSHED the pillars?

God did... through His vessel Samson Edited December 20, 2011 by Standing Firm In Christ

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Well, standing, your first paragraph shows your ignorance of the situation, but that's okay, because I didn't give all of the details, nor will I. There was no question about God providing, on anyone's part. Her suicide wasn't a rebellion against her father or against God. It was in despair because of what was going on. And it isn't up to any of us to question whether or not God was calling her to a work.

She did have the Comforter. But she had taken her eyes off of the Lord due to things that had happened. And anyone who has ever done that (no-one on this page can say they haven't at one time or another) knows that taking our eyes off the Lord brings distress: to our minds, to our hearts, to the very innermost of our being. You are not God, and therefore cannot say she didn't have the Comforter. I'll introduce you to her when we get to Heaven, where she is now.

HC,
Your post concerning the girl stated that she committed suicide because her father would not let her do something she felt God wanted her to do. Whether you want to admit it or not, that would be an act of rebellion to her father. Scripture says "Children, obey your parents in the Lord for this is right." If her father forbad her to do something, she should have obeyed... unless it was forbidding her to serve the Lord.

And if the Lord told her to do something, and she did not, she was in fact in rebellion just as Jonah was in rebellion when he got on the ship for Tarshish. And suicide is an ultimate act of rebellion against God. It is rejecting God to obey another.

I highly doubt I will see any suicides in heaven. They have murdered themselves, following the thief who comes to steal, kill and destroy instead of following the giver of life and peace.

[HappyChristian]

Standing, if you read my post again, you will see that I said it was the straw that broke the camel's back...meaning there is more to the story. She was 19, therefore no longer really a child, and her father forbade her from doing what she believed God wanted her to do. So, either she was rebelling against her father for telling her she couldn't obey God, or she was rebelling against God in not doing it, according to your scenario. Let's completely leave out total despair because of things happening (about which you do not know). There are only two ways it could be in your book. But you are wrong. Plain and simple. And you can doubt all you want that you will see any suicides in Heaven. Again, I will introduce you to her when we get there. =)

[JerryNumbers]

I'm going to try and make this my final post under this topic. You fail to accept context of the Holy Scriptures & contest of the post I have made & we are going no where.

There is only one sin that Jesus' blood cannot cover, that is unbelief, yet it seems you add at least one more, suicide.

I sure hope you have food for thought on this subject.