It's 1775, Are You A Loyalist Or A Patriot?

[HappyChristian]

Where does it explain this well, John? Other than one verse? And they did disobey the government. They absolutely did. Daniel. Moses' parents. And more (Peter).

I absolutely agree that we are never to be afraid to obey God. Our forefathers did,too. Hence the War for American Independence.

[John81]

Read what the New Covenenant tells Christians. If we read that, without the add ons of men, it's pretty clear.

[HappyChristian]

What are you talking about? Some book? If you mean the Bible, I have. Many times.

[Invicta]

I might add, in Jesus' days they were under an evil goverment,

But Rome was the legal govt.

Herod's son, Archaleus, was so bad the Jews begged Rome to apply direct rule. Rome refused at first but eventually agreed. (Under Herod, Rome did not tax the Jews, Herod did.) The Jews eventually confirmed Rome's government when they said, "We have no king but Caesar." Edited September 15, 2011 by Invicta

[JerryNumbers]

And the government in place in this county is legal.

Ac 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

[rancher824]

I thought about this while teaching class tonight (not the best idea, I am not sure if that is called multitasking or just trying to get yourself into trouble.) The lesson was on David and Goliath. As I taught and thought about how God decided the battle giving the underdog (drastically) the victory, it came to mind how that the patriots were also very much the underdogs. Logically speaking they should have lost the battle!!!! I then thought of the verses from Daniel:

Dan_2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Dan_4:17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Now who is it that sets up and removes Kings? God! Who decides the victory? God! What is my point? How can we say a group of men were in sin, but what they did brought about God's will?? Now I know you will go back to those who took Israel and how they were in sin but used to punish Israel. But we are not talking about Israel here, We are talking about England! With Israel we have the promise to bless those who bless, and curse those who curse. Neither England nor America has such a promise. I do not see America being punished for the war. I see her starting to be punished, but there are more than enough reasons without taking the war into consideration. Many OT nation fell because of sin. Did God decide that England had sinned enough that she deserved to loose the US as her holding? Only God can answer for sure! But we can all agree (or disagree about God setting up kings) that God was behind the new nation (USA) being formed.

[rancher824]

Now to the verses in James

Jas 4:1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Jas 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
Jas 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

I feel these verses are talking about fightings within the saved (among YOU) not fighting political wars. But I will look at them through your eyes. Where do wars come from? Lust.

lust

LUST, n.


1. Longing desire; eagerness to possess or enjoy; as the lust of gain.
My lust shall be satisfied upon them. Ex. 15.
2. Concupiscence; carnal appetite; unlawful desire of carnal pleasure. Romans 1. 2Peter 2.
3. Evil propensity; depraved affections and desires. James 1. Ps. 81.
4. Vigor; active power. [Not used.]

LUST, v.i.

1. To desire eagerly; to long; with after.
Thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. Deut. 12.
2. To have carnal desire; to desire eagerly the gratification of carnal appetite.
Lust not after her beauty in thy heart. Prov. 6.
Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her,hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. Matt. 5.
3. To have irregular or inordinate desires.
The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy. James 4.
Lust not after evil things as they also lusted. 1Cor. 10.
4. To list; to like.

Websters 1828

Now looking at the definition, would not the King of England be guilty of lusting after the money of the patriots? One of their cries was about "taxation without representation." From my understanding, they were being bled dry by a government that refused to give them the things the law required. It seems to me that as far as the lusting, the English Government was lusting. They caused the war. Now considering it back to applying to the saved, many a church (and more than likely most to close to all) has had fighting go on within her. This is caused by lusting after something, be it money, power, or something else. Now the actual war may not be started by the one lusting, but rather by the one who sees the lusting and the harm it will cause. But the one lusting will have to answer to God, and I feel the one who "starts" it will be given a special reward for standing true to God. The same would be true here. Let's figure out who was lusting before throwing those stones.

[HappyChristian]

:goodpost: :clapping:

[heartstrings]

Read closer. The parents of Moses didn't rebel against the government. They refused to comply with one ungodly law.

In Rahab's case, she was somehow aware her people were under judgement from God and that God had ordained the land be given to Israel. That is a unique case and and is uncomparable to that which is given to Christians to live by.

Moses'parents defied and disobeyed a law of the governemt of Egypt. Moses later denounced the government of Egypt and then they all defected from the country. I never said they 'rebelled'

[trell]

Are you a loyalist or a patriot. I am a patriot Rom 12:18 (Scripture reference was requested).

To take any side in a conflict, armed or otherwise, puts you at odds with someone. I do not judge another servant, to his own Master he stands or falls. (Rom 14:4). But I walk in the dispensation of grace, in faith, without the law or a schoolmaster (Gal 22-25), to the best of my ability. This is the flip side of being saved by grace - individual action and accountability.
Romans 13 should be looked at first and foremost in light of the church, not civil, subjection and obedience. The context of chapters 12, 13, and 14 show this, as well as the words in chapter 13 (ordained, minister, sword, minister, minister's). Additionally, how rulers are not a terror to good works is sometimes the exact opposite of what happens in the world, but in the church living like it should, it is always true. When was the last time a worldly ruler praised you for doing good? Should 'tribute' first be paid to God, or the government?
There are many verses that deal with taxes, governmental authority, and such things. I am NOT trying to negate those precepts or truths. That being said, however, I still stand on the truth that God does the calling and the vocation wherein an individual walks, and to the Master each of us stands or falls.

Edited October 11, 2011 by trell

[JerryNumbers]

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Some people hate any judgments at all, & go about telling everyone to never judge anyone or anything. Now there is one thing man cannot judge, that is the salvation of man, yet God's Word does tell us this.

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

We can tell people by their fruits. By their fruits that is we can tell if they are following God or not following Him.

And of course the Bible is quite clear, we shall be judge by what is written within it. And if we study the Bible as God has told us to.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

We can tell if one is obeying God, or not.

And its a fact, a child of God will not know who to yoke together with or not to yoke together with, unless they study the Word, know the Word, & make judgments.

2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

There is not a child of God alive that can obey the above verses nor the ones that go along with this one, without making judgments.

[John81]

Biblically speaking, a loyalist and a patriot would be one who follows the biblical mandate with regards to being subject to the authority over them and do those things commanded in such regard, such as prayers, giving honour, etc. The two would not be separate or competing.

[Covenanter]

To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II:

In light of your immediate failure to financially manage yourselves and also in recent years your tendency to elect incompetent Presidents of the USA and therefore not able to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately. (You should look up 'revocation' in the Oxford English Dictionary.)

Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except Kansas , which she does not fancy).

Your new Prime Minister, David Cameron, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.

Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated sometime next year to determine whether any of you noticed.

To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:

1. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'colour,' 'favour,' 'labour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters, and the suffix '-ize' will be replaced by the suffix '-ise.'Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (look up 'vocabulary'). (I love that one)


Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ''like' and 'you know' is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter 'u'' and the elimination of '-ize.' ' (I love that one too)

3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.

4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can't sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you're not ready to shoot grouse.

5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.

6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.

7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.)

8.You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.

9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. New Zealand beer is also acceptable, as New Zealand is pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer. They are also part of the British Commonwealth - see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.

10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Andie Macdowell attempt English dialogue in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one's ears removed with a cheese grater.

11. You will cease playing American football. There are only two kinds of proper football; one you call soccer, and rugby (dominated by the New Zealanders). Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).

12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America . Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the Australians (World dominators) first to take the sting out of their deliveries.

13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad.

14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).

15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season.

God Save the Queen!

[From a Facebook posting]

[Brother Rick]

That was funny!

We only have 11 votes and they're all pats. No loyalists here??

[Salyan]

That's hilarious! Way to go, Queen Elizabeth!

Although, in defence of my American friends, I don't think England can revoke an Independence she did not grant... :P