Elders (1 Tim 3:1ff and Titus 1:5ff)

[coc333]

Titus 1:5ff and 1 Tim 3:1ff both speak of appointing "bishops" (also known as elders/shepherds/pastors/overseers).

While I know that the Baptist call their preacher "a pastor," as I understand it, you do not appoint "Elders" (plural). I believe you do have deacons which are also spoken of in 1 Tim 3:8ff.

Could someone please explain this a bit to me? I do not know why the Baptist orginize in this manner and am interresting in knowing more about why.

Thank you to those who answer.

If this is placed in the wrong place, I am sorry.

[DennisD]

Being farily new to the IB church I don't have a whole lot of knowledge on the subject but I will tell you how our church works and maybe that can shed a little light on the subject or start a conversation.

We have a Pastor and that is it, our church is not big enough to have Deacons and really a Deacon is a servant (sets up tables, cleans the church, etc). While the jOBs are important, they are more to keep the Pastor from putting too much time into them so he can give his full attention to prayer, sermons, etc. Also, you even mentioned in your post that elder is another name for Pastor so I'm unsure why we would have more than one.

So, in essence, all of the men of the church act as Deacons but not with the title. Our Pastor has also called us the elders (think this was more of a term for the male members) of the church but not sure if that is relevant or not.

Bottom Line: There are two offices in the Church, Pastor (Bishop/Elder) and Deacon. So, my question is if we have a Pastor...why would we also have an Elder if they are the same thing?

Edited December 15, 2010 by DennisD

[HappyChristian]

Actually, there are some IFB churches where the pastor refers to himself as Pastor, Bishop and Elder...because those words are interchangeable as you (coc) showed in your first statement and parenthetical insert. However, I think one of the reasons that the average church simply refers to their pastor as pastor is that there are false churches which use the title Bishop and Elder, and this is one way of distinguishing for other people.

[coc333]

Being farily new to the IB church I don't have a whole lot of knowledge on the subject but I will tell you how our church works and maybe that can shed a little light on the subject or start a conversation.

We have a Pastor and that is it, our church is not big enough to have Deacons and really a Deacon is a servant (sets up tables, cleans the church, etc). While the jOBs are important, they are more to keep the Pastor from putting too much time into them so he can give his full attention to prayer, sermons, etc. Also, you even mentioned in your post that elder is another name for Pastor so I'm unsure why we would have more than one.

So, in essence, all of the men of the church act as Deacons but not with the title. Our Pastor has also called us the elders (think this was more of a term for the male members) of the church but not sure if that is relevant or not.

Bottom Line: There are two offices in the Church, Pastor (Bishop/Elder) and Deacon. So, my question is if we have a Pastor...why would we also have an Elder if they are the same thing?

You asked why have more than one "pastor/elder etc." The answer is because the Bible speaks of multiple elders, not just one man. It also seperates the "preacher" from the "pastors," though Peter was certainly a preacher and one of the elders so a man qualified could certainly serve in both postions if he were qualified to serve as one of the elders.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Titus 1:5ff and 1 Tim 3:1ff both speak of appointing "bishops" (also known as elders/shepherds/pastors/overseers).

While I know that the Baptist call their preacher "a pastor," as I understand it, you do not appoint "Elders" (plural). I believe you do have deacons which are also spoken of in 1 Tim 3:8ff.

Could someone please explain this a bit to me? I do not know why the Baptist orginize in this manner and am interresting in knowing more about why.

Thank you to those who answer.

If this is placed in the wrong place, I am sorry.

FTR: there are also Baptist churches that have Deacon (or Deacons depending on church size [need]), Elders and a Pastor (who is an Elder with the responsibility to "take care of the church of God" (I Tim 3:5)).

To put ALL Baptists churches (or all IFB) under a collective "Baptist do it this way" implies there is some central agency dictating polity and policy --- not so. Edited December 16, 2010 by OLD fashioned

[coc333]

FTR: there are also Baptist churches that have Deacon (or Deacons depending on church size [need]), Elders and a Pastor (who is an Elder with the responsibility to "take care of the church of God" (I Tim 3:5)).

To put ALL Baptists churches (or all IFB) under a collective "Baptist do it this way" implies there is some central agency dictating polity and policy --- not so.

I never meant to imply that all Baptist practice the same thing. I know enough about Baptist to know that that is not the case. There are some baptist who do not use mechanical instruments though most do. I am sure that we could list many other differences.

I was simply asking about one specific topic in connection with the IFB. I am sure that some in the IFB would not agree with others; I was speaking generally.

[DennisD]

You asked why have more than one "pastor/elder etc." The answer is because the Bible speaks of multiple elders, not just one man. It also seperates the "preacher" from the "pastors," though Peter was certainly a preacher and one of the elders so a man qualified could certainly serve in both postions if he were qualified to serve as one of the elders.

It still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You have someone pastoring over a church and they are called the Pastor. Where does the Elder or where do the elders fit in? Are the elders the male members of the church or ??

[Annie]

Baptist churches (most true churches, really) organize their congregations the way they do because they are trying to follow the Biblical pattern. Happy Christian hit the nail on the head when she emphasized that the terms you (coc333) mentioned in your first post are interchangeable with one another. What is an "elder" in one church might be a "pastor" or "bishop" in another church. Every Baptist church of which I've been a member has a "pastoral staff," a group of men who meet the qualifications for a "bishop" laid out in Timothy 3. This pastoral staff is responsible for the oversight and shepherding of various departments of the church. In our current church (a smaller one), not all of the pastoral staff members are paid by the church. For example, my husband was elected to be a "lay pastor" by the congregation. The deacons are also non-salaried, and serve in various ways in the church body.

I really don't see that there's a whole lot of difference between a "pastoral staff" and a "board of elders" (since the terms are used interchangeably in Scripture). Do you, coc333? Could you explain why you think that the typical way Baptists organize church leadership is unbiblical (if that's what you think)?

Edited December 17, 2010 by Annie

[John81]

Baptist churches (most true churches, really) organize their congregations the way they do because they are trying to follow the Biblical pattern. Happy Christian hit the nail on the head when she emphasized that the terms you (coc333) mentioned in your first post are interchangeable with one another. What is an "elder" in one church might be a "pastor" or "bishop" in another church. Every Baptist church of which I've been a member has a "pastoral staff," a group of men who meet the qualifications for a "bishop" laid out in Timothy 3. This pastoral staff is responsible for the oversight and shepherding of various departments of the church. In our current church (a smaller one), not all of the pastoral staff members are paid by the church. For example, my husband was elected to be a "lay pastor" by the congregation. The deacons are also non-salaried, and serve in various ways in the church body.

I really don't see that there's a whole lot of difference between a "pastoral staff" and a "board of elders" (since the terms are used interchangeably in Scripture). Do you, coc333? Could you explain why you think that the typical way Baptists organize church leadership is unbiblical (if that's what you think)?

So true. Much of the actual organization of various churches has to do with their size. A 50 member church has different needs and abilities than does a 500 member church, for instance. As to what they actually call those who help or work in the church, that's pretty much open to a degree of preference. Scripture doesn't command that we use certain titles and have someone or any certain amount of someones to fill each title mentioned in Scripture. Our church, for instance, has various boards which handle that which in some churches would be handled by those called elders. We have what many would call deacons, but they are most often called ushers.

No doubt, if our church were to double or triple in size, there would be changes made in organization due to increased and new needs. Of course, the same would apply if, God forbid, our church lost that amount.

Scripture doesn't command a cookie cutter church organization standard, but does provide the standards for which to base our church organization upon.

[coc333]

It still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You have someone pastoring over a church and they are called the Pastor. Where does the Elder or where do the elders fit in? Are the elders the male members of the church or ??

The pastors/elders are one in the same. The preacher is not the "pastor" though one can serve in both positions. The Bible teaches that there are always more than one "pastor/elder" not just one. No, the elders are not the male membes of the church. Only men can serve in this position (1 Tim 3:1ff, Titus 1:5ff) but not all men can serve since not all men are qualified. I am a preacher/minister but am not qualified to serve as an elder.

[Annie]

The pastors/elders are one in the same. The preacher is not the "pastor" though one can serve in both positions. The Bible teaches that there are always more than one "pastor/elder" not just one. No, the elders are not the male membes of the church. Only men can serve in this position (1 Tim 3:1ff, Titus 1:5ff) but not all men can serve since not all men are qualified. I am a preacher/minister but am not qualified to serve as an elder.

OK, here are all of the passages in the NT which mention the word elder:

1 Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat [him] as a father; [and] the younger men as brethren;
1Ti 5:2 The elder women as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity.
1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.
1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

All of these verses are talking about someone who is older, not about a "position" in the church.

1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2Jo 1:1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
3Jo 1:1 The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.

These verses do not establish any real definition or even description of an "elder"...So, upon what do you base your qualifications for an "elder" in the church, coc333? Is an "elder" the same as a bishop? If so, how do you know? Strong's (which isn't inspired, by any means) makes the connection by defining episkope (Gk. for "office of a bishop") as 1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder, and 2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church.

Baptists do have overseers; they call them pastors instead of elders (which is a word never used in Scripture in connection with this office). "Pastor" is not synonymous with "preacher," but the pastors do much of the preaching at Baptist churches, as part of their oversight of the flock. They are the shepherds of the flock, and feed the flock with the Word of God. I just don't see how anyone could say that this structure doesn't follow the biblical pattern.

I think a lot of this is semantics... Edited December 17, 2010 by Annie

[coc333]

OK, here are all of the passages in the NT which mention the word elder:

All of these verses are talking about someone who is older, not about a "position" in the church.

These verses do not establish any real definition or even description of an "elder"...So, upon what do you base your qualifications for an "elder" in the church, coc333? Is an "elder" the same as a bishop? If so, how do you know? Strong's (which isn't inspired, by any means) makes the connection by defining episkope (Gk. for "office of a bishop") as 1) overseership, office, charge, the office of an elder, and 2) the overseer or presiding officers of a Christian church.

Baptists do have overseers; they call them pastors instead of elders (which is a word never used in Scripture in connection with this office). "Pastor" is not synonymous with "preacher," but the pastors do much of the preaching at Baptist churches, as part of their oversight of the flock. They are the shepherds of the flock, and feed the flock with the Word of God. I just don't see how anyone could say that this structure doesn't follow the biblical pattern.

I think a lot of this is semantics...

Yes, Annie, "elder" can and does refer simply to older as far as age without any reference to the office of an elder; even when it refers to the position of elder, it also indicates that these men are older men (not a specific age) but older.

Yes, "elders" are the same thing as "bishops." You use the term overseers another term that is referring to the same position as is shepherds.... We derive this by studying the Greek. We could have such a study here, but you indicate that you have already done so and disagree with what is said so what benefit would it be for me to put the same thing that you have already looked at?

I do encourage you to continue to study this subject as we all should. Isn't it wonderful that we have the word of God to study?