ABRAHAM LINCOLN'S AMERICA

[John81]

That's good you clarify that because that's not generally how a "sympathizer" is viewed. Myself, I don't care about northern or southern, I go by what the facts indicate, what the Constitution actually says and leave the northern and southern propaganda out of it.

(Just out of curiosity, have you ever done an in-depth study of the War of 1812?)

The point being now, we have a government totally different than what the Founders established. The Constituiton is virtually ignored and we are ever becoming more of a socialist nation along the lines of European nations. What now?

[Seth Doty]

(Just out of curiosity, have you ever done an in-depth study of the War of 1812?)

I would like to think so. But I don't know, is this something else we need to avoid?

[matie-k]

Seth,

All I can say is I once held the position you hold but being a lover of history and the truth I spent countless hours over the course of years studying this and the facts are very clear once you dig through to the source at which point the only room for conclusion is to either accept the truth or reject the truth; it's really that clear.

The intention of starting this thread was not actually about Lincoln, rather it was about the sorry state of our country and how we came to this mess. It's so true that if we don't understand our past we can't rightly judge the present or prepare for the future. This is why so many accept Obama and the liberal-socialist agenda. They are so ignorant (in the true sense of the word, not as an attack) of their own history and have been fed so much propaganda many actually believe the liberal version of American history which is almost totally fabricated.

I wrote a term paper in an American history class in university. This was for a unit on the "civil war". The professor delayed returning my paper for an additional two weeks beyond the regular grading time period. He had been teaching that course for a dozen years and most of what I wrote he had never heard of before. It was his belief that I had made up much of the report and used bogus sources. To his credit he actually took the time to look up every one of my sources and concluded they were indeed all solid and factual. He was in the process of writing a book regarding the "civil war" and he said he would have to redo at least one entire chapter due to the new information he learned from my report. He also asked for my permission to quote from my report in his book.

These days I don't do such intense research into historical matters, though I'm thankful to God for that which I learned previously doing such. The vast majority of my reading and research now is Bible-based as I no longer plan to teach college history. The Lord has been directing me towards concentration in growth in personal holiness and service to others, and I have no doubt the Lord has something different planned for my career or Christian service in the future which He hasn't yet revealed to me.

Seth, I hadn't intended on posting this much. It's good that we not become hotly engaged in that which isn't of the hightest importance. I didn't mean to hit upon a sore spot with you and I do look forward to more brotherly discussions with you in more biblical threads.

I guess it's a sore spot with me too which is one of the reasons why I just don't stick around here all that much anymore. Just being honest. :hide I'm just wondering what you southerners are trying to accomplish by constantly bringing up that period in time? Would it satisfy you and finally put your mind at peace about it if me and a few other northerners would finally say "ok, you're right and I sincerely apologize for all the hurt you and yours recieved from that time"? I'm guessing it wouldn't quiet you...it's like you're still fighting that war, only the weapons are words now. I hardly gave that era any thought until I started hearing it so much here on this forum. It really makes one think that there's some bitterness involved. I once was told I was bitter about something, and I got offended and indignantly said "no I'm not!" Then I gave it much thought and soul-searching, and I realized that yes I was bitter about it to a degree. When one is at peace about something, they don't feel a need to constantly hash and rehash it.

I can see a person being a history buff. I certainly am not one though! I am much too cynical to believe one man's written word over another. In my mind, nearly every writer has a slant, so I have a hard time taking any of them too seriously. Maybe OB should start a "history" section for those who enjoy discussing history.

[John81]

I would like to think so. But I don't know, is this something else we need to avoid?

No, nothing I can think of we need to avoid. It's just seems to be one of those areas of American history most don't seem to study. I didn't study it much myself until I bought an old set of books printed in the late 1800s which went into far more detail about that war than I had ever read before. Just a curiosity question.

[Seth Doty]

No, nothing I can think of we need to avoid.

Good. :Green The only potentially contentious thing I can think of about the 1812 war off the top of my head is the great numbers of slaves who fled the south and crossed the british lines to gain their freedom. :Green

[John81]

I guess it's a sore spot with me too which is one of the reasons why I just don't stick around here all that much anymore. Just being honest. :hide I'm just wondering what you southerners are trying to accomplish by constantly bringing up that period in time? Would it satisfy you and finally put your mind at peace about it if me and a few other northerners would finally say "ok, you're right and I sincerely apologize for all the hurt you and yours recieved from that time"? I'm guessing it wouldn't quiet you...it's like you're still fighting that war, only the weapons are words now. I hardly gave that era any thought until I started hearing it so much here on this forum. It really makes one think that there's some bitterness involved. I once was told I was bitter about something, and I got offended and indignantly said "no I'm not!" Then I gave it much thought and soul-searching, and I realized that yes I was bitter about it to a degree. When one is at peace about something, they don't feel a need to constantly hash and rehash it.

I can see a person being a history buff. I certainly am not one though! I am much too cynical to believe one man's written word over another. In my mind, nearly every writer has a slant, so I have a hard time taking any of them too seriously. Maybe OB should start a "history" section for those who enjoy discussing history.

Well, like I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not about north or south for me, I'm just a big fan of truth. It doesn't matter to me what anyone north or south thinks about such matters other than the fact I do hate to see folks believing a lie, any lie.

As well, this thread wasn't, and isn't supposed to be about, Lincoln or The War, but rather about the sorry state of our country. The author of the article simply traced back to where much of this problem began.

Learning the truth has greatly changed my thinking over the years. I once believed Lincoln was a great hero and Grant was a great general. The truth shows otherwise so I was left with the choice of accepting the truth and changing my thinking accordingly or rejecting the truth and holding onto my old thoughts which were based upon falsehoods.

And it's not just with regards to the "civil war" era or the northern side, I've learned a great deal about folks from both sides I once didn't know. I could say the same thing about some aspects of the French and Indian War era, colonial period, Revolutionary War....etc., etc., all the way to more modern times from the WWII and the Korean War right into the 21st century.

A dozen years ago I could indeed become riled over topics such as this. Thankfully, that's not an issue for me right now. If a topic comes along I can't keep negative emotions out of then I keep myself out of that topic. I'm to be led by the Spirit, not by my flesh and that's something we all battle with in various areas and in various ways.

Katie, you know I think highly of you and if any of my posts have come across in a wrong or bad manner then I'm truly sorry to have offended you. I take responsibility for not being more clear in my postings.

[Seth Doty]

As well, this thread wasn't, and isn't supposed to be about, Lincoln or The War, but rather about the sorry state of our country.

With a title like "ABRAHAM LINCOLN'S AMERICA" and an OP all about blaming Lincoln for nearly everything wrong with the country today it is certainly easy to get that impression.

Well, like I've mentioned elsewhere, it's not about north or south for me, I'm just a big fan of truth. It doesn't matter to me what anyone north or south thinks about such matters other than the fact I do hate to see folks believing a lie, any lie.

No one ever said you didn't believe what you are saying is the truth, but others don't believe that it is. Other such as myself think our view is the truth, thus the conflict over various posts.

[John81]

For someone who said they wanted to drop this you certainly seem to keep trying to bring it back up. :smile

The truth is the truth and it speaks for itself. Lincoln violated the Constitution. Provable, proven truth; no amout of justification can change that. Lincoln's actions, regardless of whether we believe them right, wrong or neutral, destroyed the Constitutional Republic the Founders established. Again, provable, prove truth regardless of whether we believe it to have been justifiable, right, wrong or neutral. The foundation and basis other presidents who further eroded the Constitution and lead America ever more into socialism stem from the Lincoln presidency.

For good or bad, we can look back to any president who made significant changes during his time in office and see whether they were or were not Consitutional and it really shouldn't matter who the president was, but whether or not they obeyed the Constitution and governed by the Constitution or not. And in light of the great jumps towards socialism recently, it's prudent to observe how their actions affect this, whether pro or con.

I loved Ronald Reagan as president, but I don't ignore his mistakes or unconstitutional aspects. I didn't like Carter but I give him credit for starting the rebuilding of the military, which Reagan took over and accelerated.

[JerryNumbers]

Some people just don't like controversy. But if one will read in the Bible, just during Jesus ministry on this earth, it was surrounded by controversy. And if you going to be a Christians in this age, stand up and proclaim God's true Word controversy is going to follow you, along with opposition and persecution. Remember all the trouble Jesus and His chosen had.

I know of a church right no that has been busted all the way down the seams, its lost more than 3/4 of its members, the reason its that way is a long time back some members wanted to just get along with everyone and avoid all controversy. BUT, if they had stood strong on the Word of God and has not just gone along with those who brought in less than the truth just to avoid controversy this could have been avoided, and or the effect would not have been so great.

Back to the subject, I can agree to disagree, but the truth is the Civil War was just a stpe in the direction America has been head in ever since and it will not be turned around, it will wax worse just as the Bible tells us. Seems clear we are seeing it with out very own eyes.

Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.

2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.



2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

[John81]

[HappyChristian]

(sorry - I just have to ask this :cool ) Why would they need to do that if Lincoln freed the slaves?????? :frog :saint

If people don't want to discuss something, they don't need to read a thread. I think the title to this thread was obvious, so if someone doesn't want to discuss the Uncivil War, they wouldn't need to read it...

History is good to discuss, because we can all learn something (like I learned about Geo. Wn. as a (non) communicant), whether it's something we want to hear or not. Sometimes we need to be faced with a truth that we may not like. As far as reading other men's writings, to a point that should be avoided. But when it is the writings of the man (or woman) personally, there's not a whole lot that can be misconstrued.

Also, in the political field, all we need to do is read the Constitution and then look at what any POTUS has done in comparison to see if they stack up. Like many of our POTUS', AL does not like many folk who believe him to be the best we've had think.

Is it wrong to discuss something like this? No! We each have our own thoughts and opinions on the matter, some from research, some from just listening to what they've been taught. But exchange of ideas is good.

FWIW - I am not a northerner nor am I a southerner. I was born in Seattle, which did not exist (except as Indian turf) at the time of the war). But I do study. And I compare. And, I'm sorry, but constitutionally I come down on the side of the south. Logically I do as well, because it's obvious (perhaps because hindsight is always 20/20) that slavery would have ended gradually and peacefully had things continued as they were without a war.

Bitter? Nah, except possibly at the wrongs done to us a people when history isn't taught correctly. A nation that forgets her history is a nation that will lose her freedoms...just as we are today. IMO, second to God's Word in importance of being taught is history. And why? Because history is the story of God's working in the lives of men. And something that we can all always learn from.

[John81]

If people don't want to discuss something, they don't need to read a thread. I think the title to this thread was obvious, so if someone doesn't want to discuss the Uncivil War, they wouldn't need to read it...

History is good to discuss, because we can all learn something (like I learned about Geo. Wn. as a (non) communicant), whether it's something we want to hear or not. Sometimes we need to be faced with a truth that we may not like. As far as reading other men's writings, to a point that should be avoided. But when it is the writings of the man (or woman) personally, there's not a whole lot that can be misconstrued.

Also, in the political field, all we need to do is read the Constitution and then look at what any POTUS has done in comparison to see if they stack up. Like many of our POTUS', AL does not like many folk who believe him to be the best we've had think.

Is it wrong to discuss something like this? No! We each have our own thoughts and opinions on the matter, some from research, some from just listening to what they've been taught. But exchange of ideas is good.

FWIW - I am not a northerner nor am I a southerner. I was born in Seattle, which did not exist (except as Indian turf) at the time of the war). But I do study. And I compare. And, I'm sorry, but constitutionally I come down on the side of the south. Logically I do as well, because it's obvious (perhaps because hindsight is always 20/20) that slavery would have ended gradually and peacefully had things continued as they were without a war.

Bitter? Nah, except possibly at the wrongs done to us a people when history isn't taught correctly. A nation that forgets her history is a nation that will lose her freedoms...just as we are today. IMO, second to God's Word in importance of being taught is history. And why? Because history is the story of God's working in the lives of men. And something that we can all always learn from.

Wow! What an excellent post!!! :thumb

[Seth Doty]

(sorry - I just have to ask this ) :cool Why would they need to do that if Lincoln freed the slaves?????? :frog :saint

Maybe because the civil war came after the war of 1812?

Some people just don't like controversy. But if one will read in the Bible, just during Jesus ministry on this earth, it was surrounded by controversy. And if you going to be a Christians in this age, stand up and proclaim God's true Word controversy is going to follow you, along with opposition and persecution. Remember all the trouble Jesus and His chosen had.

If people don't want to discuss something, they don't need to read a thread. I think the title to this thread was obvious, so if someone doesn't want to discuss the Uncivil War, they wouldn't need to read it...... Sometimes we need to be faced with a truth that we may not like.

Ok, that is all I needed to know. I was a hop skip and a jump from moving on when I quit as a mod, and since several regular board membersstrongly imply they will be completely unable to refrain from starting threads that they know very well a number of people find deeply offensive(it is hardly just me) then that just made the decision to move on a whole lot easier. That kind of attitude bugs me more than the topic itself. I don't feel like dealing any more with christians who find themselves completely unable when asked at first politely and then more bluntly to show deference to such simple request when I have never before asked anything of the kind and when the request contradicts nothing in scripture. I no longer feel like like silently putting up with this kind of irritation as I have generally done the last few years. This thread and the responses on it was the very last straw for me personally. So long folks, have fun, I am out of here, either for good or for a good long while.

[Invicta]

Excuse me for asking but what was the war of 1812?

[Revelation3:20]

Excuse me for asking but what was the war of 1812?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812