John 5:3-4 Is it Scripture?

[kevinmiller]

So, these are the type of comments I often get from guys like you who do not believe that any Bible in any language is the pure and 100% true words of God.

Guys like me? I don't think you'll find any posts on here where I quoted from a NASB. :roll

As far as the quotes you just posted; I can't make a judgement concerning them without having seen what it was that you posted that precipitated these kinds of responses. I know that there are nasty non-KJVO'ers as well, I just find it far more prevalent in the KJVO camp. Especially when you automatically condemn myself, for example, as being "one of them" simply because I have a problem with your ungodly attitude and judgemental spirit.

I think we see very little fruit in our world today because neither side of Christianity is balanced. In the neo-evangelical camp, you have love without doctrine. In the fundamentalist camp, you have doctrine without love(obviously this doesn't apply to everyone).

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
(Ephesians 4:15)
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
(Romans 14:13)

[ltl]

"The Holy Scriptures are kept perfectly pure by God

[kevinmiller]

"The Holy Scriptures are kept perfectly pure by God

[John the Baptist]

Hi John, believe whatever you want, but you still have no complete and infallible Bible to recommend to anyone. All you have are the wildly divergent opinions of "great men" you seem to admire, who in turn differ from the opinions of other "great men".

By the way, I don't know how you missed the obvious. I never said Robertson said it was not in the "Majority". What he clearly says is this: " It is a relief to many to know that the verse is spurious."

Your "oldest and best" manuscripts are a sham and a farce. I have presented FACTS that can be verified about what the wildly divergent readings of these mss. actually are, and yet you cling to your "oldest and best texts" theory. Oh well. Only God can open the eyes of the blind. I certainly cannot.

Happy trails,

Well Will, good to hear from you. You can believe as you will, but inerrancy is not in the translation, but in the original text. The King James is a good strict translation, but every translation has some weaknesses. Because it is a translation. I have studied the Greek New testament for over thirty years and no translation conveys everthing that is in the original language.

God bless
John



Will K

[IM4given]

John 5
1 After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

2 Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

3 In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.

4 For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

5 And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.

6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

7 The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.

8 Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

9 And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

10 The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.

11 He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.

12 Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?

13 And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.

14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

Now why do you fellers seem to have such a hard time believing what these scriptures say? Is it because you don't believe that an angel can trouble the waters and cause people to be healed? There are some people who don't like anything written in the old testament, so they ignore it, argue it away, and put it straight out of their minds. There are some people who don't like anything written in the book of Corinthians, so they just skip over that book or certain chapters of it just because they don't personally agree with it, and that way they can justify their wicked ways, rather than acknowledge their sins and repent. There are some people who absolutely despise the ten commandments, and when they read things in there that they are commanded to do like "honor thy father and mother" or "Thou shalt not commit adultery" they get really angry and try to find other verses to twist and distort the Word of God until they make it agree with their own personal viewpoint. There are people who take the parts that they personally like from the scriptures and throw the rest away - I am not one of them. If I won't throw away the unpopular scriptures, why would I throw away the 3rd and 4th verses of the 5th book of John?

Is it alright with you guys if I read this scripture and take it for the gospel truth in this matter? Perhaps the point Jesus was showing the people was that they did not have to wait for some special miracle performed by an angel in order to be healed - all that they had to do was believe in Him and repent and they would be saved?

[GlenBurnieMD]

Kevin,

Will is a fine Christian man who used to post here quite a lot. He puts a great deal of work into his articles and I have seen him take a lot of flack from others who do not have a perfect Bible. His work has been a blessing to me and others. You should check out his website.

Also, the way you lifted his quotes and lumped them together makes it appear that the brain dead comment was made to JTB when it wasn't. Finally, I would not let the number of people who hold an opinion pursuade me on truth and error. Kadesh-Barnea is a perfect example of this fallacy.

Mike

[Jerry]

I don't understand the how or the why of this passage - but it is in God's Word and is no harder to believe than any other miracle. And Jesus teaches the faith is not to be in any miracles, but in Him. It is a good contrast and lesson to learn.

[brandplucked]

"The Holy Scriptures are kept perfectly pure by God

[John81]

Good points Will! I'm glad you addressed those mentioned versions so I didn't have to dig up my information on them. :saint

[brandplucked]

Guys like me? I don't think you'll find any posts on here where I quoted from a NASB. :roll

As far as the quotes you just posted; I can't make a judgement concerning them without having seen what it was that you posted that precipitated these kinds of responses.

Hi Kevin. The "guys like you" refers to the fact that you do not believe that any particular Bible is the complete and 100% true words of God. Instead you recommend a ballpark approximation by listing your 2 or 3 personal favorites (even though these differ among themselves both in text and meaning in many verses), and then end up telling us that No translation is perfect and that we must go to "the Hebrew and the Greek", even though you never quite get around to identifying for us EXACTLY which Hebrew and Greek you are talking about.

As for the context of the insults this moderator heaped upon me, you can see for yourself right here if you are interested.

http://www.fundamentalforums.com/showth ... 584&page=4

Did I provoke him in any way by personal insults? Did I call him any names or imply that he was not saved? No. All I did was post an article that clearly shows how the modern versions are corrupt and teach false doctrine. He never once made an attempt to refute the arguments or the verses, but instead lashed out at me as though I were a tool and a dupe of Satan. I have found this to be a more and more typical response from the Whateverists lately. Seems like they are getting pushed into a corner where they will have to admit that they do not believe The Bible or any bible is now the infallible words of God, and this they do not want to do. So they act like spoiled kids and throw a tantrum.

Take a look at the post for yourself.

All of grace,

Will K

[IM4given]

Will, did you come here to pick a fight with us? Are you or are you not KJV only? If you are, then what is all the fuss about anyways? Why get all bent out of shape about something that happened on a different board - you are among friends now, I think.

I fail to see where you are distinguishing yourself from what the rest of us are saying too?

[brandplucked]

Will, did you come here to pick a fight with us? Are you or are you not KJV only? If you are, then what is all the fuss about anyways? Why get all bent out of shape about something that happened on a different board - you are among friends now, I think.

I fail to see where you are distinguishing yourself from what the rest of us are saying too?

Hi IM4, I have to wonder if we are reading the same posts. No, I did not come here to pick a fight. Yes, I am solidly a King James Bible only believer. You ask: What is all the fuss about? It's about the fact that a few members here are hedging their bets and sitting on the fence.

Here is what they have said so far.

John the Baptist says: "All the manuscripts that support the reading of verse 4 are foonoted in the textual apparetus the United Bible socities Greek New Testament. This verse is wanting the oldest Greek manusripts. For which I am sure you do not agree. In my opinion this is pretty strong evidence that it may have not been in the originals.

I would not slight A.T. Robertson too much. I would suggest you read his "New Testament Greek Grammer in the Light of Historical Researchbefore you make a final opinion. "

Itl, and Kevin Miller say: ""The Holy Scriptures are kept perfectly pure by God

[Calvary]

I'm not saying you have to be a King James Bible only believer to be a Christian, but don't pretend to believe in an infallible Bible when in fact you do not.

Draw the lines. Do the logic. Come to the right conclusion in your arguments.

Either the King James Bible is the only complete and infallible Bible on earth today, or there is none at all.

Will Kinney

:java:

[John the Baptist]

Hi IM4, I have to wonder if we are reading the same posts. No, I did not come here to pick a fight. Yes, I am solidly a King James Bible only believer. You ask: What is all the fuss about? It's about the fact that a few members here are hedging their bets and sitting on the fence.

Here is what they have said so far.

John the Baptist says: "All the manuscripts that support the reading of verse 4 are foonoted in the textual apparetus the United Bible socities Greek New Testament. This verse is wanting the oldest Greek manusripts. For which I am sure you do not agree. In my opinion this is pretty strong evidence that it may have not been in the originals.

I would not slight A.T. Robertson too much. I would suggest you read his "New Testament Greek Grammer in the Light of Historical Researchbefore you make a final opinion. "

Itl, and Kevin Miller say: ""The Holy Scriptures are kept perfectly pure by God

[John the Baptist]

Iam not complaining but wonder why I went from a senior member with around 400 post to just a member with under three hundred post. Just wondering.

God Bless
John