Just one more reason

[heartstrings]

Just one more reason I don't believe the Lord Jesus made the water into alcoholic wine...

Habakkuk 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

 

[Martyr_4_FutureJoy]

2 hours ago, heartstrings said:

Just one more reason I don't believe the Lord Jesus made the water into alcoholic wine...

Habakkuk 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

 

And another perhaps:   Can clean water come out of a polluted well,   or can polluted water come out of a pure well ?   -  so also what(ever) comes from Messiah is pure, holy, righteous, life-benefitting, encouraging, faithful and true entirely.    

The same message the disciple of Jesus heard,  that was joy and peace and eternal life to /for them, from God, 

the same message,  even at the same time,  was a putrid odor to those who rejected Jesus,  those who have no part in Eternal Life nor in Christ Jesus.

[MikeWatson1]

I remember being taught that wine in the bible is mostly grape juice.. with a little bit of alcohol to purify it.  That it is very low alcohol content.

Jesus turning water into wine.. it would make sense if it was pure grape juice without even the little bit of alcohol.  

But it would be good to know more on this.

[robmac68]

17 hours ago, heartstrings said:

that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

Wine or not, Jesus would not have tried to get someone drunk in order to take advantage of them which is what this verse is referring to doing.  

Matthew 3:4b...and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Obviously John ate because we see his meat was honey and locust so we know Jesus is not referring to simply not eating.  John could not have lived more than a few days without at least drinking water.  So Jesus isn't saying in verse 18 that John never drank water.  So what is Jesus referring to when He stated that John didn't eat or drink?  The next verse explains when Jesus stated that He ate and drank.  What was He eating and drinking?  Something the Pharisees were not because they called Him a glutton and winebibber.  If they called Him a winebibber, I believe this would actually be wine.  Jesus Himself stated He came drinking.  Was He ever drunk?  Certainly not!  Drunkenness is a sin and He never sinned.  Understanding the English language and reading in context, Jesus drank wine that would have had alcohol.  No this is not sin.  Being drunk is.

[BrotherTony]

25 minutes ago, robmac68 said:

Wine or not, Jesus would not have tried to get someone drunk in order to take advantage of them which is what this verse is referring to doing.  

Matthew 3:4b...and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Matthew 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.

19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Obviously John ate because we see his meat was honey and locust so we know Jesus is not referring to simply not eating.  John could not have lived more than a few days without at least drinking water.  So Jesus isn't saying in verse 18 that John never drank water.  So what is Jesus referring to when He stated that John didn't eat or drink?  The next verse explains when Jesus stated that He ate and drank.  What was He eating and drinking?  Something the Pharisees were not because they called Him a glutton and winebibber.  If they called Him a winebibber, I believe this would actually be wine.  Jesus Himself stated He came drinking.  Was He ever drunk?  Certainly not!  Drunkenness is a sin and He never sinned.  Understanding the English language and reading in context, Jesus drank wine that would have had alcohol.  No this is not sin.  Being drunk is.

There are so many in Christian circles that do not properly exegete scripture and who put their own biases and misunderstanding of scripture in action, trying to make what they wrongly believe Bible. I believe there is enough scripture to support that Jesus drank wine. The sin is NOT in partaking, but is indeed in drunkenness. It's not a popular position, but, there it is. 

[MikeWatson1]

Seems to be a good excerpt on this topic from here:

https://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/what-are-historical-and-scriptural-facts-about-fermented-drinks-bible

[Joe Chandler]

Proverbs 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Of course this is just my opinion.

[SureWord]

From what I've read alcohol content in booze back in those days was mild compared to today. More like cough syrup I guess. The process have been so developed today that liquor is much stronger. The alcohol content kept the drink from developing as much bacteria since water wasn't as safe to drink. I could be wrong about this but it's what I've read.

Also, the man who invented bourbon was a baptist pastor named Elijah Craig and he did so to get the men to come to church. A shot if you showed up. Of course, this could be a legend

It's probably best for a believer to totally abstain for appearance because of it's reputation

 

[BrotherTony]

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

From what I've read alcohol content in booze back in those days was mild compared to today. More like cough syrup I guess. The process have been so developed today that liquor is much stronger. The alcohol content kept the drink from developing as much bacteria since water wasn't as safe to drink. I could be wrong about this but it's what I've read.

Also, the man who invented bourbon was a baptist pastor named Elijah Craig and he did so to get the men to come to church. A shot if you showed up. Of course, this could be a legend

It's probably best for a believer to totally abstain for appearance because of it's reputation

 

Spurgeon, also a Baptist was a drinker as well as a smoker. The Bible talks about tarrying long at the wine and drunkenness. Partaking is not a sin. Doing so to the point of drunkenness is. For the record, I am not a drinker, but I don't think any the less of someone who does as long as they don't become drunk.

[TheGloryLand]

The drunk man said, you left the best wine for last. If it did not have alcohol, I don't think he would not have said this. But, what is impossible for man, is easy for God to do. the drunk mans taste buds, were convinced.

[HappyChristian]

God said it's not wise. That's enough for me to stay completely away.  Foolishness to look for reasons to "be allowed" to imbibe.

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

The drunk man said, you left the best wine for last. If it did not have alcohol, I don't think he would not have said this. But, what is impossible for man, is easy for God to do. the drunk mans taste buds, were convinced.

I'm sorry, but, I believe you are mistaken, TGL. It was NOT a drunken man, it was the governor of the feast. At no point does it imply that he was drunk. He was speaking of when people have well drunk that people bring out the wine of lesser quality. We need to be careful about what we say that Scripture has said.

[Jerry]

The Bible passage does not say, Do not drink wine to excess - it says wine in itself is excess.

Ephesians 5:18
And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

[robmac68]

5 hours ago, Jerry said:

it says wine in itself is excess.

Um, looking at this passage by diagraming the sentence, drunk is the subject so the "wherein is excess" after the comma would be referring to "drunk" not wine.  This passage is not saying wine in itself is excess, but drunkenness.  And, if you have ever been around drunks, the alcohol magnifies their attitude or personality.  This causes them to be "excessive" in all they do.  The drunk driver will drive in "excess" of the speed limit, whereas the stoned driver tends to drive well below the speed limit.  

[robmac68]

On 7/29/2023 at 9:42 PM, HappyChristian said:

God said it's not wise. That's enough for me to stay completely away.  Foolishness to look for reasons to "be allowed" to imbibe.

God said it is not wise to be deceived by wine or strong drink.  How are we deceived?  By getting drunk and being excessive.  The drunk smokes more cigs than when sober.  The drunk will spend more money at the gambling tables than sober.  That is why a lot of casinos used to offer free drinks.  I already mentioned above he will drive faster.  The list goes on and on.  This is the person deceived by alcohol.  How is he deceived?  He thinks he is having a good time.  Meanwhile, he wakes up hungover and broke.  Yep!  He is deceived.  

I don't think anyone here is looking for reasons to imbibe, at least I hope not.  I just do not want to call something a sin that is not.  My wife grew up in a church that said roller skating was sin because it was "too entertaining".  Playing "old maid" was sin because it involved cards and all cards are sin because it leads to gambling.  My wife telling our children that roller skating is not a sin is not looking for a reason to skate, she is way to clumsy and would hurt herself, but just trying to stay biblical.