Now there’s a movement to bar women as worship leaders in churches

[Pastor Matt]

What's your belief of female music leaders? The article link below seems like it was written just to keep things with the times and not an article I necessarily agree with. So what's your beliefs on woman choir directors, woman leading congregationals and so forth?

 

https://baptistnews.com/article/now-theres-a-movement-to-bar-women-as-worship-leaders-in-churches/

[BrotherTony]

I have had definite opinions on this since I've been in several churches that have had women leading the choir and congregational singing. The first was the church I grew up in. When we started attending and I was only 9 years old, we had a female leading. Many of the men were disgruntled over this, though she did an excellent job. Yet, some of what she had us singing had bad doctrine. She finally resigned when I was 11 years old but remained as a member for many more years. One of the latest is the current church we're in. Using more CCM and it's faulty doctrine has been the norm of late, and the sandwiching of hymns between CCM songs, or having CCM added to the end or beginning of a hymn is problematic for me. Another thing is that the "Worship Leader" is the pastor's wife. Nepotism and cliquishness have become the norm in the church. It's not that the pastor's wife is intentionally trying to lead anyone in the church in the wrong direction, I believe her heart is pure and her motives are to help the church and her husband's ministry. It's problematic because most of the CCM being forced on the congregation are songs that the people don't know, or that sound more like "boyfriend/girlfriend" rock or country songs. One song that I particularly dislike that is often sung in congregational singing is one that claims that God's love is "reckless." The error is blatant and glaring, but, it's something they don't want to hear. 

 

[TheGloryLand]

I believe a woman can lead or serve, in the music, usher, security, kitchen even teaching in the classroom. No, into becoming the Pastor, of a church. If there are no men, this can all change.

[BrotherTony]

11 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

I believe a woman can lead or serve, in the music, usher, security, kitchen even teaching in the classroom. No, into becoming the Pastor, of a church. If there are no men, this can all change.

On the portion I've bolded and underlined...could you explain further what you mean by this? 

[TheGloryLand]

22 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

On the portion I've bolded and underlined...could you explain further what you mean by this? 

If there is no man to preach or refuse to preach. God, can use a woman, if He pleases. They are already evangelizing.

[Jim_Alaska]

15 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

If there is no man to preach or refuse to preach. God, can use a woman, if He pleases. They are already evangelizing.

God will never go against His Word as He recorded it in our Bibles. God never changes, therefore circumstances changing cannot make Him change.

1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

[TheGloryLand]

7 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

God will never go against His Word as He recorded it in our Bibles. God never changes, therefore circumstances changing cannot make Him change.

1 Timothy 2:12 (KJV) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I believe this, and it does apply especially when it comes to head of the home and family.

[HappyChristian]

17 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

I believe this, and it does apply especially when it comes to head of the home and family.

However, that particular verse is speaking of the church, not the home. A wife isn't to usurp her hubs' authority, but don't apply to the home what God intends for the church...

As to the OP...

I am not in favor of "worship" leaders whether they be male or female. Far too many of them (not saying all) "lead" the congregation in  worldly method of "worship."

I prefer the "old-fashioned" SONG leader. And that would eliminate women from the position simply because it is leadership of both men and women in the church.  

 

[Salyan]

On 3/4/2023 at 8:40 AM, PastorMatt said:

What's your belief of female music leaders? The article link below seems like it was written just to keep things with the times and not an article I necessarily agree with. So what's your beliefs on woman choir directors, woman leading congregationals and so forth?

 

https://baptistnews.com/article/now-theres-a-movement-to-bar-women-as-worship-leaders-in-churches/

Aren't they already barred, in conservative churches? I wouldn't be okay with a lady leading the mixed congregation in worship.  And I'm perfectly happy not to have extra people singing on stage (seriously - come down and sing in the congregation and you'll help the people around you feel comfortable singing more strongly).  Sounds like an article that's taking the normal divergence of opinions/doctrine (or lack thereof) between the fundamental and new evangelical churches and trying to make a big deal of it. 

[BrotherTony]

2 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

1. If she was leading the church in songs that contained bad doctrine, then she was not doing an excellent job.

2. Just because someone is proficient at a certain thing, it does not mean that it is permissible.  I have met several women over the years that had an amazingly deep understanding of God's Word, were fantastic teachers, and could explain things better than many pastors I have heard.  However, God's Word forbids them from pastoring and having authority over men; regardless of their skill.

Paul's words seem pretty clear that the role of women, in the church, is not to be in leadership or teaching positions.  If they are to wait to ask their husbands to clarify things for them when they get home, it seems that they should not be in teaching positions either; even amongst other women or children.  One of the reasons Paul seems to give for this is that women are more easily deceived.

This subject has always seemed, to me, to be another example of people searching for a loophole.  "How close to sinning can I get without technically sinning?"  "Well, maybe it says that, but it probably doesn't mean this," is the attitude.  People just don't like being told, "No."  Especially women.

God told Adam not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before Eve had been created.  So, unless God had spoken to Eve directly about the tree, but decided not to enter that conversation into the record, the only way she could have known about the prohibition was by her husband telling her.  

My personal view on this, which is extrabiblical speculation, is that, when Adam told Eve they couldn't eat from the forbidden tree, Eve may have asked him, "Well, can we at least touch it?"  And he may have replied, "No, Eve!  We can't eat from it or touch it or... you know what?  Don't even look at it, Eve!  Don't even think about dreaming about imagining anything to do with it!  Okay?"

As I said, this is extrabiblical speculation, but I don't think it's totally impossible.  Remember, when God asked Adam if he had eaten from the forbidden tree, Adam replies, "The woman whom THOU gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."  It's almost as if Adam is sassing back to God; "Hey, YOU thought this whole 'Eve thing' was a good idea.  You... not me!"

I think that concept may be partly what is behind Paul teaching us to avoid even the appearance of sin.  Like he was trying to say, "Look, don't try to find any loopholes, people.  Sin is bad!  Don't get anywhere near it!  If you're not sure, err on the side of extreme caution and avoid even the possibility of it!"

For all people, of all ages, when God says, "No," He means, "No."  We must accept that we've been told, "No" and move on.

When I was speaking of her doing an excellent job, it wasn't in relation to doctrine....that is self-evident to those who don't jump into the fray without reading the whole post or thread. She DOES do an excellent job at what she does concerning knowing how to lead the choir. Enough said. 

Edited March 16, 2023 by BrotherTony

[heartstrings]

On 3/5/2023 at 7:18 AM, TheGloryLand said:

If there is no man to preach or refuse to preach. God, can use a woman, if He pleases. They are already evangelizing.

IF there are no men present, in any meeting, then yes a woman, an "aged woman"(mature) should teach and certainly moderate. But in a church, under no circumstances are women given any Biblical authority to teach or preach to men. We don't have lady song leaders at our church and, I believe, because of authority or "leadership" concerns, that's the way it should be......and I'm not against women; I'm happily married to one.

[BrotherTony]

30 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

IF there are no men present, in any meeting, then yes a woman, an "aged woman"(mature) should teach and certainly moderate. But in a church, under no circumstances are women given any Biblical authority to teach or preach to men. We don't have lady song leaders at our church and, I believe, because of authority or "leadership" concerns, that's the way it should be......and I'm not against women; I'm happily married to one.

Personally I wish the pastor's wife would step down as "worship" leader. I mean, what is that anyway? In most of the Baptist churches I was ever in as a member or visitor up until the early 1990s, there was a proper song leader. I never did like the changeover to a "worship ' leader. I always believed that to be the pastors job, and we should have our hearts in condition to worship and praise God. 

[JenM]

I think it's very clear that a woman shouldn't be a pastor, or a preacher. To extend that to women not teaching other women or children, or never teaching men anything even if it's outside the context of preaching or a Bible study, seems a bit of an overreach to me. I prefer that a songleader be male, because I believe men should take leadership roles in public worship, but it's only a strong preference, not something I would be dogmatic about.

[TheGloryLand]

8 hours ago, JenM said:

I think it's very clear that a woman shouldn't be a pastor, or a preacher. To extend that to women not teaching other women or children, or never teaching men anything even if it's outside the context of preaching or a Bible study, seems a bit of an overreach to me. I prefer that a songleader be male, because I believe men should take leadership roles in public worship, but it's only a strong preference, not something I would be dogmatic about.

I have no problem with a woman leading in the music, if there no man. As long as she dresses proper. She not teaching while worshiping. Married, personally preferred to avoid attraction, which is the main problem. 

[Salyan]

Music leaders lead, though, and that's a form of authority within the service. I don't think women should be in that position either.