Why do many pastors/laymen confuse verses for the Rapture of the Church with the Second Coming of Christ?

[BrotherTony]

I was looking back over notes that I have taken over than 50+ years that I have been in the Baptist church, and I noticed a consistent challenge that I'd like some of you pastors/laypeople here to address. I know the Scriptures on these events, and I have to let you know up front that my research while I was at MBBC in Watertown, WI nearly got me expelled from college with a whole group of student who were studying the two. I knokw what verses go where, and with what event. From my notes, though, I find that many of the pastors I sat under, especially in my early years in church, didn't always hold or preach the verses correctly. Why do many preachers confuse the Scriptures for the two? 

Have you experienced pastors/laypeople who don't have these scriptures in their correct venue? 

What do you do when this happens?  It IS a point of doctrine...so, is it worth asking a preacher who is improperly preaching and crossing these events into one, or apply the verses for one to the other? 

Thanks in advance....

BT

[Jerry]

Some of it probably comes from assuming the references in Matthew 24, etc. are referring to the church looking up to the Lord gathering the elect in the air, and not realizing those passages are specifically referring to the nation of Israel. That is what the Pre-wrath position teaches - authors and promoters of that position use those passages to backup their position. If a pastor or preacher got into those books and started following their teachers, they are just perpetuating the cycle of wrong conclusions. I did for a year or two (this was before I ever began preaching, but I passed on that info in Bible studies), until I realized that Isaiah 13 uses the exact same language as Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, but describes the time period (ie. the Day of the Lord, whole tribulation period) as the time of God's wrath, not just the last half of it (which some people seem to think Revelation 6 refers to).

[BrotherTony]

4 minutes ago, Jerry said:

Some of it probably comes from assuming the references in Matthew 24, etc. are referring to the church looking up to the Lord gathering the elect in the air, and not realizing those passages are specifically referring to the nation of Israel. That is what the Pre-wrath position teaches - authors and promoters of that position use those passages to backup their position. If a pastor or preacher got into those books and started following their teachers, they are just perpetuating the cycle of wrong conclusions. I did for a year or two (this was before I ever began preaching, but I passed on that info in Bible studies), until I realized that Isaiah 13 uses the exact same language as Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, but describes the time period (ie. the Day of the Lord, whole tribulation period) as the time of God's wrath, not just the last half of it (which some people seem to think Revelation 6 refers to).

Thank you for the input! 

[Invicta]

In John's gospel, were told that the saints will be raised "on the last day" we also told that the judgement would be on the last day. 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 10/25/2021 at 2:35 PM, BrotherTony said:

I was looking back over notes that I have taken over than 50+ years that I have been in the Baptist church, and I noticed a consistent challenge that I'd like some of you pastors/laypeople here to address. I know the Scriptures on these events, and I have to let you know up front that my research while I was at MBBC in Watertown, WI nearly got me expelled from college with a whole group of student who were studying the two. I knokw what verses go where, and with what event. From my notes, though, I find that many of the pastors I sat under, especially in my early years in church, didn't always hold or preach the verses correctly. Why do many preachers confuse the Scriptures for the two? 

Have you experienced pastors/laypeople who don't have these scriptures in their correct venue? 

What do you do when this happens?  It IS a point of doctrine...so, is it worth asking a preacher who is improperly preaching and crossing these events into one, or apply the verses for one to the other? 

Thanks in advance....

BT

Yes, I have experienced this.

I only engage in a corrective when I am in a position of authority or close personal friendship with the individual presenting it.  Thus I might correct members of the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made me responsible.  Or I might discuss with a fellow pastor with whom I have a close relationship, and whom I recognize can handle such a discussion.  But I would not likely seek to correct a preacher of "special meetings" at another church which I might attend.  On the other hand, if other members of the flock over which the Holy Spirit has made me responsible were also in attendance, I might take the time to express my corrective concerning that teaching to those members, since they are my God-given responsibility.

Why does it happen?  My best guess is because those who hold to a pretribulational rapture position (as I do) desire to find more passages than just 3 or 4 to support that position (since it experiences such dispute).

[1Timothy115]

I think we read scripture too fast and lightly and miss the context. Then, I suppose some just rely on hearsay without performing fact-checking.

[SureWord]

They either don't know or refuse to rightly divide.

Also, there are many Christians, including Baptists who hold to Replacement Theology therefore appropriate all promises to Israel to the Church.

[TheGloryLand]

On 10/25/2021 at 2:35 PM, BrotherTony said:

I was looking back over notes that I have taken over than 50+ years that I have been in the Baptist church, and I noticed a consistent challenge that I'd like some of you pastors/laypeople here to address. I know the Scriptures on these events, and I have to let you know up front that my research while I was at MBBC in Watertown, WI nearly got me expelled from college with a whole group of student who were studying the two. I knokw what verses go where, and with what event. From my notes, though, I find that many of the pastors I sat under, especially in my early years in church, didn't always hold or preach the verses correctly. Why do many preachers confuse the Scriptures for the two? 

Have you experienced pastors/laypeople who don't have these scriptures in their correct venue? 

What do you do when this happens?  It IS a point of doctrine...so, is it worth asking a preacher who is improperly preaching and crossing these events into one, or apply the verses for one to the other? 

Thanks in advance....

BT

1. Christ was born, first visit.

2. Christ die and came back, second visit.

3. Rapture of the Saint’s.

7 years of tribulation.

4. Christ came back, and leave for 1000 years, third visit. 

5. Christ comes back to finish His work after 1000 years. 4th visit.

BT is this correct?

 

 

[BrotherTony]

8 hours ago, TheGloryLand said:

1. Christ was born, first visit.

2. Christ die and came back, second visit.

3. Rapture of the Saint’s.

7 years of tribulation.

4. Christ came back, and leave for 1000 years, third visit. 

5. Christ comes back to finish His work after 1000 years. 4th visit.

BT is this correct?

 

 

I don't believe the "second visit" should be classified as such. I would still count this under his first "visit." On the "third visit," Christ doesn't "leave" for a 1000 years. He's here for 1000 years, ruling and reigning. He doesn't need to come back after this...he's already here. 

[TheGloryLand]

45 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

I don't believe the "second visit" should be classified as such. I would still count this under his first "visit." On the "third visit," Christ doesn't "leave" for a 1000 years. He's here for 1000 years, ruling and reigning. He doesn't need to come back after this...he's already here. 

The 1000 years, you say that He is here, isn’t there sin towards the end, making it that there is still sin around. Here on earth. Earth  

[Jerry]

Yes, there will still be sinners on the earth - people who were still alive when Jesus Christ returned and who entered the millennium in mortal bodies. They will have children (though the resurrected saints will not - as they will have immortal bodies, which cannot have children), and some of them or some of their mortal descendants are the ones that will be gathered against the Lord and Jerusalem at the end of the thousand years.

[BrotherTony]

TGL, throughout the millenial reign, there will still be mortal human beings here. That means that sin will still be around. This shouldn't really be a mystery to you if you have read the scriptures. 

[Jerry]

Matthew 25:31-46 and Isaiah 65:17-25 are good passages that talk about the mortals alive during the Millennium. Those nations (or individuals) still alive at the end of the tribulation that helped God's people during those years are the ones that Jesus brings into the Millennium in mortal bodies (prophesied by Jesus at the end of Matthew 25). All those resurrected from the dead prior to this point will have immortal bodies at the start of the 1000 year reign of Christ. Those who enter the millennium in mortal bodies or who are born during those 1000 years and then die (whether during the reign of Christ or as a result of the judgement of Christ when Satan gathers the lost world against Christ/Jerusalem) will be resurrected at the great white throne judgement, along with all other wicked/lost people since the world began, and then be judged by Christ before being tossed into the lake of fire forever.

[Invicta]

On 8/16/2022 at 8:45 PM, Jerry said:

Matthew 25:31-46 and Isaiah 65:17-25 are good passages that talk about the mortals alive during the Millennium. Those nations (or individuals) still alive at the end of the tribulation that helped God's people during those years are the ones that Jesus brings into the Millennium in mortal bodies (prophesied by Jesus at the end of Matthew 25). All those resurrected from the dead prior to this point will have immortal bodies at the start of the 1000 year reign of Christ. Those who enter the millennium in mortal bodies or who are born during those 1000 years and then die (whether during the reign of Christ or as a result of the judgement of Christ when Satan gathers the lost world against Christ/Jerusalem) will be resurrected at the great white throne judgement, along with all other wicked/lost people since the world began, and then be judged by Christ before being tossed into the lake of fire forever.

When I was in the Brethren many years ago we were taught that nobody would be saved in the tribulation.  Earlier in a book written in1836 , the author said that the church he had been in taught that for two and a half years the earth would be without a prophet or a preacher.