144,000 in Revelation Literal or symbolic?

[Jerry]

Well, looks like the "church fathers" got it wrong again.

Yes, some passages do refer to the church as the temple of the Holy Spirit - that is not what is in view in Revelation.

Also, the 144,00 is definitely intended literally - God would not go to such lengths to name 12,000 from each tribe to just state something symbolic.

Stop listening to the Catholic church fathers that make much in the Bible - especially the book of Revelation - allegorical. The only way to take prophecy is literally - or else you will NEVER figure out what it is intended to mean or understand when it was/will be fulfilled. Yes, there is symbolism - but each symbol points to something literal, and God is consistent as to how He uses each symbol. Trace it throughout His Word to learn what it is symbolic of.

In this case, it is not a symbolic - God is literally speaking about 144,000 male virgins Jews. Another thing, the church is no longer on the earth as of Revelation 4:1, which is when the rapture occurs (by comparing all relevant passages together) - so it is impossible for that group in Revelation 7 (which God defines in the exact same passage) to represent the church on earth when they have already been removed from the earth.

[Invicta]

1 hour ago, Jerry said:

Well, looks like the "church fathers" got it wrong again.

Yes, some passages do refer to the church as the temple of the Holy Spirit - that is not what is in view in Revelation.

Also, the 144,00 is definitely intended literally - God would not go to such lengths to name 12,000 from each tribe to just state something symbolic.

Stop listening to the Catholic church fathers that make much in the Bible - especially the book of Revelation - allegorical. The only way to take prophecy is literally - or else you will NEVER figure out what it is intended to mean or understand when it was/will be fulfilled. Yes, there is symbolism - but each symbol points to something literal, and God is consistent as to how He uses each symbol. Trace it throughout His Word to learn what it is symbolic of.

In this case, it is not a symbolic - God is literally speaking about 144,000 male virgins Jews. Another thing, the church is no longer on the earth as of Revelation 4:1, which is when the rapture occurs (by comparing all relevant passages together) - so it is impossible for that group in Revelation 7 (which God defines in the exact same passage) to represent the church on earth when they have already been removed from the earth.

The church "fathers" were before the Catholic church.  That is why I call them early church writers.  The writers believe that the church is the temple and they were correct in that. This was believed by all the non Catholic church until the Catholic futurist teaching spread to th protestants in the early 19th century.  They were closer to the Apostolic times than we are  and when the all agreed I believe that were probably following teaching handed down and when the disagreed they were probably giving their opinions.

The book of Revelation was written to the church.  It comforted the saints and martyrs through the catholic tribulation that lasted 100s of years and murdered millions of saints, when they could see that retribution would come upon their persecutors.  

You will no doubt say I am wrong, but I ask you to prove that Futurism was taught in non catholic churches before 1800.  

 

[Jerry]

The "church fathers'" writings are what, for the most part, developed into the foundation of the Catholic church. Some of the doctrines and practices even had their start in the first century - as can be seen in the letter to Thyatira in Revelation 2. Some of the worst corruptions that crept into "christianity" were in the second to the fourth centuries: Augustine, Origen, Clement of Alexandria, Jerome, and many others.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

Who Are the 144,000 and What Is Their Ministry?

‘And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel’ (Rev. 7:4). As I have said previously, Revelation is comprised of figurative language throughout. This is another verse that is loaded with symbolism. In fact, failing to see the different symbolism used has led to all sorts of wrong interpretations. In the case of the 144,000, we should strongly consider whether or not the numbers in the text are used symbolically. In “Numerology in Revelation” (see Appendix), I argue that numbers should be considered figuratively if:

- the literature is apocalyptic (a genre that uses symbolism and allegory);

- there is clear use of numerology;

- numerology is used at the outset;

- numbers associated with Biblical numerology are used;

- numbers associated with Biblical numerology are used throughout;

- only numbers associated with Biblical numerology are used throughout;

- credible Biblical meaning is consistently the outcome when interpreting numbers as symbols;

- multiple cases exist, making chance unfeasible.

Revelation ticks all of the above; therefore we ought to consider the figurative meaning behind the number 144,000. Remember, often the numbers that are used are combinations of the distinctive numbers in Scripture, which adds to the meaning. This is true of 144,000 as shown here:

12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000

12 = covenant people

10 = quantitative fullness

3 = God

2 = both Old and New Testament eras

‘one hundred forty-four thousand’ – 10 x 10 x 10 (or 10³) x 12 x 12 (or 12²) depicts the fullness (10) of God’s (3) people of both (2) the Old (12) and New (12) Covenant eras.

‘sealed’ – this is not a literal sealing, but is figurative of a spiritual truth.

‘tribe’ – note that this isn’t the traditional tribal list. There is meaning behind why some are listed and others omitted. Also of significance is the order in which they appear. For example, Judah is listed uncharacteristically ahead of Reuben. Furthermore, the fact that each tribe is depicted with the exact same number of people strongly suggests that the meaning is not literal, as some tribes were significantly larger than others.

‘Israel’ – figuratively Israel represents the people of faith of both Testaments. This fits with Paul’s teaching that ‘not all Israel are Israel.’

The 144,000 are, therefore, the people of God of both Testament eras. The original audience, which included many Gentiles, would have recognized that they were being included and referred to by this symbolism. And, such an interpretation would have encouraged not only the early Church, but the Church throughout history.

This is in contrast to a literal interpretation of a supposed 144,000 Jews who God will be busy with after the Rapture, which dispensationalists propose. Such a total misinterpretation comes from applying a literal method to what is clearly figurative language, thereby robbing the Church of the encouragement intended for her.

 

[Disciple.Luke]

39 minutes ago, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Who Are the 144,000 and What Is Their Ministry?

‘And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel’ (Rev. 7:4). As I have said previously, Revelation is comprised of figurative language throughout. This is another verse that is loaded with symbolism. In fact, failing to see the different symbolism used has led to all sorts of wrong interpretations. In the case of the 144,000, we should strongly consider whether or not the numbers in the text are used symbolically. In “Numerology in Revelation” (see Appendix), I argue that numbers should be considered figuratively if:

- the literature is apocalyptic (a genre that uses symbolism and allegory);

- there is clear use of numerology;

- numerology is used at the outset;

- numbers associated with Biblical numerology are used;

- numbers associated with Biblical numerology are used throughout;

- only numbers associated with Biblical numerology are used throughout;

- credible Biblical meaning is consistently the outcome when interpreting numbers as symbols;

- multiple cases exist, making chance unfeasible.

Revelation ticks all of the above; therefore we ought to consider the figurative meaning behind the number 144,000. Remember, often the numbers that are used are combinations of the distinctive numbers in Scripture, which adds to the meaning. This is true of 144,000 as shown here:

12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000

12 = covenant people

10 = quantitative fullness

3 = God

2 = both Old and New Testament eras

‘one hundred forty-four thousand’ – 10 x 10 x 10 (or 10³) x 12 x 12 (or 12²) depicts the fullness (10) of God’s (3) people of both (2) the Old (12) and New (12) Covenant eras.

‘sealed’ – this is not a literal sealing, but is figurative of a spiritual truth.

‘tribe’ – note that this isn’t the traditional tribal list. There is meaning behind why some are listed and others omitted. Also of significance is the order in which they appear. For example, Judah is listed uncharacteristically ahead of Reuben. Furthermore, the fact that each tribe is depicted with the exact same number of people strongly suggests that the meaning is not literal, as some tribes were significantly larger than others.

‘Israel’ – figuratively Israel represents the people of faith of both Testaments. This fits with Paul’s teaching that ‘not all Israel are Israel.’

The 144,000 are, therefore, the people of God of both Testament eras. The original audience, which included many Gentiles, would have recognized that they were being included and referred to by this symbolism. And, such an interpretation would have encouraged not only the early Church, but the Church throughout history.

This is in contrast to a literal interpretation of a supposed 144,000 Jews who God will be busy with after the Rapture, which dispensationalists propose. Such a total misinterpretation comes from applying a literal method to what is clearly figurative language, thereby robbing the Church of the encouragement intended for her.

Taken from my book, Dismantling Dispensationalism: A guide to better understanding the Last Days and the End Times.

It is also available as a blog post, Babylon, the 144000 and The Two Witnesses – Interpreting Revelation – Part 3.

Is this a sincere question or just a place to copy and paste quotes from your Dismantling Dispensationalism book? Since all three posts you've made are pasted it feels more like an advertisment than discussion.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Disciple.Luke

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

Hi Luke,

What I have given are sincere responses to the topics at hand, much of which are from material I have previously worked through. I have also given links to my works so that those who are interested can read more. What I have given is free and I have, in some cases, given links to a free website too.

Thanks for asking.

P.S. I will add free links where I haven't, which is often my procedure, so as not to be seen as peddling the word for profit (2 Co 2:17). 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Dr. Robert S. Morley
added the P.S.

[Salyan]

Hi, Mod here! That’s actually an excellent response - the providing free links so it’s not just a book for sale. Thank you for that.  However, in alignment with the request made an introduction post (only just made, so no one jump down his throat!), I am removing the links, as I do feel they are counterproductive to a true discussion environment, and (as you can see) not in line with the culture of this site. They are still on your introduction, so people can find them if they are snooping you.

[Disciple.Luke]

On 4/15/2023 at 2:39 PM, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

Hi Luke,

What I have given are sincere responses to the topics at hand, much of which are from material I have previously worked through. I have also given links to my works so that those who are interested can read more. What I have given is free and I have, in some cases, given links to a free website too.

Thanks for asking.

P.S. I will add free links where I haven't, which is often my procedure, so as not to be seen as peddling the word for profit (2 Co 2:17). 

Thank you for the reply. I'm glad you're not here just to try to sale books. 

Welcome to the forum, Robert.

[Dr. Robert S. Morley]

Thanks for the welcome, Luke. Btw, I removed the links as I didn't realize that posting them was against the rules. God bless. 

[Jerry]

Wow, can we say that Morley is "explaining away the Bible"?

The statement below causes me great alarm BECAUSE THERE ARE NO OTHER APOCALYPTIC WRITINGS FROM GOD - THEREFORE CLASSING GOD'S BOOK WITH WORLDLY APOSTATE RELIGIOUS WRITINGS IS A FALSE START AT BEST, AND LEADS TO ALL SORTS OF HERESY AT WORST. The Bible is here to be the gauge for all other writings, not the other way around.

On 4/15/2023 at 6:53 AM, Dr. Robert S. Morley said:

the literature is apocalyptic (a genre that uses symbolism and allegory);

[Jerry]

The 144,000 are literal Jewish witnesses - same as the two witnesses in chapter 11 (as various other passages support). Chapter seven lists which tribes they are from - and a study of the rest of the OT shows WHY certain tribes are not listed, This fits in with many other passages on the endtimes, including Paul's statement in the following verse:

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Paul was saved suddenly and dramatically, by seeing the risen Christ on the road to Damascus. His birth was like that of a premature baby - born out of due time in compared to the rest of his nation, which will be saved in a similar manner during the tribulation (the 144,000 at the midpoint and all remaining Israel at the end of the seven years).