Does the Rapture of the Church happen Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, or Post Tribulation?

[BrotherTony]

When I was in Bible college at Maranatha Baptist Bible College in Watertown, WI back in 1983, there were several of us preacher boys who were studying the rapture of the church. Some held to what seems to be the prevailing view of the pre-tribulation rapture. There were some, however, that held to the view of the mid-tribulation/pre-wrath rapture. This was an interesting viewpoint, and I studied it further. There was a third group, and they held to the position that the rapture occured post-tribulation/pre-millenial Kingdom of Christ. It has always made me wonder why people hold the positions they hold on this subject. What position do you hold, and why? Please use Scriptures as much as possible. Thank you in advance.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

I hold to a pre-tribulational rapture position, primarily due to my understanding of the grammatical and contextual flow of thought in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

[SureWord]

I hold to the pre-trib view.

The pre-wrath rapture view is a result of confusing the body of Christ with the nation of Israel. One group, the Church, will be raptured before the tribulation and the other, Israel, before God's final wrath.

[Hugh_Flower]

Pre trib. 
 

[robycop3]

I believe the rapture will occur shortly after the beast/antichrist comes to power, but before the trib begins, so, I'm a "pre-tribber".

  Why do I believe it'll be after the beast is revealed? Because Jesus tells us his signs & assigns him the # 666.

[Ukulelemike]

I see a marked difference between the tribulation and the falling of God's wrath, so I see the rapture taking place in Rev 14:14, just prior to God's wrath beginning. "So post-trib/pre-wrath". I believe there is a lot of assumption given that lends toward a pre-trib position, that is not to be backed by scripture, but by reading into scripture.

For instance, in 1thes 4, the chapter ends by saying, "Wherefore comfort one another with these words.", and they say, 'How can there be comfort in knowing we have to endure the great tribulation?' and I say, 'The comfort doesn't come from anything about the tribulation, but the fact that we will see our loved ones who have died in Christ.' They ignore the context. As well, 1Thes 4 has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture, but with the fact of, and hope in the rapture.

as well, just because Israel is in focus during the tribulation doesn't mean the church must be gone from the earth-for 2000 years the church has been the focus in God's eyes, but Israelites have continued to exist, and for 73 years the actual nation of Israel has been present on earth. For prophecy to focus on one group over the other doesn't mean one must disappear from earth, just from prophecy.

That's just a couple reasons.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

I see a marked difference between the tribulation and the falling of God's wrath, so I see the rapture taking place in Rev 14:14, just prior to God's wrath beginning. "So post-trib/pre-wrath". I believe there is a lot of assumption given that lends toward a pre-trib position, that is not to be backed by scripture, but by reading into scripture.

For instance, in 1thes 4, the chapter ends by saying, "Wherefore comfort one another with these words.", and they say, 'How can there be comfort in knowing we have to endure the great tribulation?' and I say, 'The comfort doesn't come from anything about the tribulation, but the fact that we will see our loved ones who have died in Christ.' They ignore the context. As well, 1Thes 4 has nothing to do with the timing of the rapture, but with the fact of, and hope in the rapture.

as well, just because Israel is in focus during the tribulation doesn't mean the church must be gone from the earth-for 2000 years the church has been the focus in God's eyes, but Israelites have continued to exist, and for 73 years the actual nation of Israel has been present on earth. For prophecy to focus on one group over the other doesn't mean one must disappear from earth, just from prophecy.

That's just a couple reasons.

Brother Mike,

As I assume you are aware, I would disagree with your position on this matter.  Indeed, as I presented earlier in this very thread discussion, I hold my position based primarily on my understanding of the grammatical and contextual flow of thought in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.  On the other hand, I would view the reasons that you have presented above, by which it seems others have argued for the pre-tribulational rapture, as nothing but human rhetoric.  You are correct - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not state anything about the timing of the rapture, but only about the reality thereof.  In fact, although I would not agree with the position of your posting above, I would indeed agree with sentiment of your posting - human logic is a poor foundation for doctrine.  Only precise Biblical truth and teaching is a solid foundation for doctrine.

[Ukulelemike]

On 8/5/2021 at 2:50 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Mike,

As I assume you are aware, I would disagree with your position on this matter.  Indeed, as I presented earlier in this very thread discussion, I hold my position based primarily on my understanding of the grammatical and contextual flow of thought in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.  On the other hand, I would view the reasons that you have presented above, by which it seems others have argued for the pre-tribulational rapture, as nothing but human rhetoric.  You are correct - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 does not state anything about the timing of the rapture, but only about the reality thereof.  In fact, although I would not agree with the position of your posting above, I would indeed agree with sentiment of your posting - human logic is a poor foundation for doctrine.  Only precise Biblical truth and teaching is a solid foundation for doctrine.

Thank for your kind and measured response. I do have a question: What is the event mentioned in Rev 14:14-16 referring to?  

"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." 

As well, contextually, it would appear that the "day of Christ" mentioned in 1Thes 2:2, to which Paul is referring, is not the rapture, but the second coming, with Christ and His angels in flaming fire coming to execute judgment on those who know not God  and don't obey the commandment. (2Thes 1:7-9). We remember, of course, that the Bile originally was without verses and chapters, so the thought flows from chapter 1 through chapter two, making the return of Christ to earth the "day of Christ" mentioned in chapter 2. Or so it would seem to me.

 

 

[BrotherTony]

I wish I could find the sermon again so that I could post it, but I listened to a sermon by a preacher who stated that there was no rapture of the church, and then proceeded to talk about how there would be no millineum...that both were the product of blinded minds inside the Baptist Churches. At first, I was shocked, but after a few minutes I could recall some of the preachers in Bible college espousing similiar views, but not on both subjects.

[Ukulelemike]

9 minutes ago, BrotherTony said:

I wish I could find the sermon again so that I could post it, but I listened to a sermon by a preacher who stated that there was no rapture of the church, and then proceeded to talk about how there would be no millineum...that both were the product of blinded minds inside the Baptist Churches. At first, I was shocked, but after a few minutes I could recall some of the preachers in Bible college espousing similiar views, but not on both subjects.

Yes, they do that by allegorizing everything. Its all allegory or symbolism or something. Usually they're preterists, trying to justify how Jesus returned in 70AD.

 

[BrotherTony]

15 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Yes, they do that by allegorizing everything. Its all allegory or symbolism or something. Usually they're preterists, trying to justify how Jesus returned in 70AD.

 

That was their position exactly from what I could gather from the sermon....can't believe a seminary graduate could be so confused.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 8/9/2021 at 4:40 PM, Ukulelemike said:

Thank for your kind and measured response. I do have a question: What is the event mentioned in Rev 14:14-16 referring to?  

"And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." 

As well, contextually, it would appear that the "day of Christ" mentioned in 1Thes 2:2, to which Paul is referring, is not the rapture, but the second coming, with Christ and His angels in flaming fire coming to execute judgment on those who know not God  and don't obey the commandment. (2Thes 1:7-9). We remember, of course, that the Bile originally was without verses and chapters, so the thought flows from chapter 1 through chapter two, making the return of Christ to earth the "day of Christ" mentioned in chapter 2. Or so it would seem to me.

Brother Mike,

In your posting above, you asked a question concerning Revelation 14:14-16.  In addition, you implied a second question concerning "the Day of Christ" in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 and its relationship to the context of 2 Thessalonians 1 - 2.  As I answer those questions, I wish to begin with the context of 2 Thessalonians 1 - 2, since that context is foundational to my position on a pre-tribulational rapture.  And in this posting I wish to begin with the flow of thought in 2 Thessalonians 1 --

1.  In 2 Thessalonians 1:3-4 the apostle Paul expresses his thanks unto God for the faith, charity, and patience of the believers at Thessalonica, especially in the face of the persecutions and tribulations that they were experiencing.

2.  In 2 Thessalonians 1:5-7 the apostle Paul seeks to encourage the believers at Thessalonica is relation to the persecutions and tribulations that they were experiencing by focusing their attention upon "the righteous judgment of God."  

2.a  First, the encouragement of God's righteous judgment is that these believers "may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God," for which they were suffering.

2.b  Second, the encouragement of God's righteous judgment is that God would (in due time) "recompense tribulation" to those who were persecuting them.

2.c  Third, the encouragement of God's righteous judgment is that God would (in due time) recompense rest to those who are being persecuted for His name's sake.

3.  In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 the apostle Paul reveals the time wherein God's will bring about this righteous judgment and recompense - at our Lord Jesus Christ's "Second Coming."

3.a  This is the time of Christ's REVELATION in power and glory - "When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."  (This would seem to correspond with Revelation 1:7 & Revelation 19:11-16)

3.b  This is a time of Christ's VENGEANCE upon unbelievers - "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not god, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."  (This would seem to correspond with Revelation 14:9-11 & Revelation 19:17-21.)

3.c  This is a time of Christ's GLORIFICATION among believers - "When he shall come to be glorified in his saints,a nd to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."  (This would seem to correspond with Revelation 14:12-13 & Revelation 20:4-6)

4.  In 2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 the apostle Paul prays for the believes at Thessalonica concerning their faithfulness and spiritual growth, all that the name of Christ might be glorified in them.

_________________________________________

It does indeed seem clear that 2 Thessalonians 1 is talking about the "Second Coming" of Christ.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Pastor Scott Markle

[HappyChristian]

I'm on board with all that brother Scott has said, so I won't repeat it. The OP just brought back memories of my Bible Doctrines class while I was in college. Very small class as it was a very small college, so we all knew each other and our beliefs well. We were all (including the professor) in agreement on a pre-Trib rapture. 

But one day, in the course of study, it was time to study the rapture. At this college, the church pastor and much of the staff were very good friends with Ian Paisley, although they disagreed on eschatology (and baptism, among a few other things). The professor decided to use Paisley's mid-Trib  beliefs to prove a pre-Trib. After class, as we were walking out, we agreed that, had we not already been convince of a pre-Trib position, the way the professor presented Paisley's eschatological errors would have convinced to a mid-Trib position. Not his intent at all. LOL

IMO, it proved that folks can use scripture to "prove" anything. Rightly dividing is so vital - on any topic.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Mike,

As I continue - Although there is some similar subject matter between 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 Thessalonians 2, I believe that the apostle Paul's primary focus in 2 Thessalonians 1 was completed with verse 12.  The apostle's primary focus in 2 Thessalonians 1 was to express encouragement in the face of persecution.  However, in 2 Thessalonians 2 his primary focus is to express correction in the face of misinformation.  This is revealed by his opening statements in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.  Let no man deceive you by any means . . . ."  Apparently some had been attempted to deceive the believers at Thessalonica concerning the timing for "the day of Christ."   In fact, it even appears that someone had sent them a letter containing this misinformation and had "forged" the apostle Paul's name to it.  Thus throughout chapter 2 the apostle seeks to correct this deception and misinformation.  Yet because this matter of misinformation concerns the timing for "the day of Christ" and because the apostle had employed Christ's future coming as the focus for encouragement in 2 Thessalonians 1, we encounter some similar subject matter in both chapter 1 and chapter 2.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:1 the apostle Paul begins with a reference to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and to "our gathering together unto him."  It should be noted that grammatically within this verse the preposition "by" is used twice, but that the second usage is in italics (indicating that it is not directly found within the original Greek).  I would contend that grammatically the singular usage of the preposition "by" which encompasses the compound objects of the preposition ("the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" AND "our gathering together unto him") indicates that the two objects of the preposition are describing the same event.  I would contend that whatever coming of our Lord is described in this verse, "our gathering together unto him" occurs at the same time.  Furthermore, I would contend that this "gathering together" unto Christ is that event which is described in 1 Thessalonians 1:13-18 (wherein we are "caught up together" to meet our Lord in the air) and which we commonly call the Rapture.  Indeed, I would contend that 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is referencing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ."  

Yet this now raises the first major question concerning our understanding of the teaching in 2 Thessalonians 2 - Is this "Rapture-Coming of Christ" (2 Thessalonians 2:1) to be understood as the same coming which is described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?  2 Thessalonians 1:10 does state, "When he shall come."  However, 2 Thessalonians 1:7 seems to place greater emphasis upon this event as that wherein "the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven."  Thus I shall refer to the event described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ."  This is the question - Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same event as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"?  If the answer is yes, then we have the timing for the rapture at the same time as the timing of our Lord's coming in power and great glory - at the end of the seven year Tribulation Period and the beginning of the thousand year reign of Christ.  On the other hand, if the answer is no, then since 2 Thessalonians 2 seems to be concerned with timing for various prophetic events, I would expect that we should find within this chapter some actual indicator of the different timing between the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" and the "Revelation-Coming of Christ."

Now, those who hold to a pre-tribulational rapture (as I do), those who hold to a mid-tribulational rapture, and even those who hold to a pre-wrath rapture, all present the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" and the "Revelation-Coming of Christ" as having a different timing.  Thus it would seem to me that all of us within those groups are compelled to demonstrate some indicator for that different timing somewhere throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2.  If we cannot demonstrate such an indicator for that different timing throughout this context, then it would seem to me that we should acknowledge from the joined contexts of 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 Thessalonians 2 that the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" and the "Revelation-Coming of Christ" are one and the same event.

Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"?

Edited August 14, 2021 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 8/14/2021 at 7:07 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

This is the question - Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same event as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"? 

Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"?

In my previous posting I presented a two-fold question for us to consider.  Let us now proceed with the teaching of 2 Thessalonians 2 -

2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."  In verse 1, as I have noted above, the apostle Paul made reference to the "Rapture-Coming of Christ."  Furthermore, at the end of verse 2 the apostle made reference to "the day of Christ."  Thus the question could be raised - Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same as "the day of Christ," or are these two different events?  Finally, the apostle indicated that "the day of Christ" was not yet "at hand."   

2 Thessalonians 2:3 - "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [contextually "the day of Christ"] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition."  Having taught at the end of verse 2 that "the day of Christ" was not yet "at hand," the apostle explained in verse 3 that two things must happen FIRST before "the day of Christ" can occur.  First, there must be a "falling away."  Second, there must be the revelation of "that man of sin," "the son of perdition."  

Thus we now have the beginning of an order of some prophetic events, as follows:

1.  A "falling away."
2.  The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."
3.  The "day of Christ."

2 Thessalonians 2:4 - "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."  Herein the sentence from verse 3 continues with a description concerning the ungodly, anti-God character of this man of sin.  He will oppose and exalt himself above any and all that is called God, including against the one true and living God.  Furthermore, he will do so while sitting himself "in the temple of God," claiming that he himself is very God.  I would contend that according to the teaching in the book of the Revelation, this blasphemy by the man of sin will occur at the middle of the seven year Tribulation period, as per Revelation 12 - 13.  Yet this does raise a question - Is the revelation-event of the man of sin the same as this blasphemy-event by the man of sin, or are they two different events in the prophetic time-line?

Thus we can add an element to our order of prophetic events, but with some uncertainty, as follows:

1.  A "falling away."
2.  The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."
?.  The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."
3.  The "day of Christ."

2 Thessalonians 2:5-6 - "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?  And now ye know what withholdeth that he [the man of sin] might be revealed in his time."  Herein the apostle Paul revealed that there is some power which is holding back (withholding) the man of sin from being revealed until his set time.  This then raises the question - What or who is this withholding power which holds back the revelation of the man of sin?

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8a - "For the mystery of iniquity doeth already work: only he who now letteth [withholdeth - the same Greek word as is translated "withholdeth" in verse 6] will let [withhold, hold back], until he be taken out of the way.  And then shall that Wicked [the man of sin] be revealed . . . ."  Herein the apostle Paul added further explanation to the teaching of verse 6.  Herein the apostle revealed that "the mystery of iniquity" (the spirit and power of antichrist, as per 1 John 2:18 & 4:3) is already working hard in the world around us from the first century of the church unto the present time.  Furthermore, the apostle revealed that the power which holds back the revelation of the man of sin is actually a singular "he" (who has been holding back from the first century of the church unto the present time).  Finally, the apostle revealed that this "withholder" will continue to hold back the growing and pressing spirit and power of iniquity and antichrist until that very moment wherein he the "withholder" is "taken out of the way."  Yet when he the "withholder" is "taken out of the way," then the wicked man of sin, "the son of perdition," will be revealed.  So then, this narrows our question from verse 6 - Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin?

Thus we can now add an element to our order of prophetic events, as follows:

1.  A "falling away."
2.  The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way."
3.  The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."
?.  The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."
4.  The "day of Christ."

2 Thessalonians 2:8 - "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."  Herein the apostle Paul reveals the end and destruction for the man of sin.  The man of sin will be "consumed" and "destroyed" with "the spirit" of the Lord's "mount" and with "the brightness" of the Lord's "coming."  Indeed, this seems to be clear reference unto our Lord's coming "in power and great glory," that is - to "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" as presented in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Revelation 1:7; Revelation 19:11-16, etc.  Indeed, it seems likely that this is the event which is referenced contextually in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 as "the day of Christ."

Thus we can now add further explanation to our order of prophetic events, as follows:

1.  A "falling away."
2.  The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way."
3.  The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."
?.  The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."
4.  The "day of Christ," "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" - The destruction of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 - "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believe not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."  Herein we find further description of the man of sin, concerning the source of his power and the extent of his influence (which corresponds with Revelation 12 - 13).  In addition, verses 11-12 reveal why God Himself will allow the man of sin to have so much power and influence over the spiritually lost of this world.

_____________________________________

Now, I would contend on the foundation of the presentation and time sequence above, that if we can sufficiently answer the questions that have been raised, we can come to some solid conclusions concerning the timing for "the Rapture-Coming of Christ."

1.  A "falling away."
2.  The "withholder" himself is "taken out of the way."
3.  The revelation of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."
?.  The blasphemy by the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."
4.  The "day of Christ," "the Revelation-Coming of Christ" - The destruction of the "man of sin," "the son of perdition."

Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same event as the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"? 

Do we have some indicator throughout the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 for viewing the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" as occurring at a different time than the "Revelation-Coming of Christ"?

Is the "Rapture-Coming of Christ" the same as "the day of Christ," or are these two different events?

Is the revelation-event of the man of sin the same as this blasphemy-event by the man of sin, or are they two different events in the prophetic time-line?

Who is this "he" which holds back (withholds) the revelation of the man of sin?