Post-Trib Rapture?

[LYDIA WESTERN]

This is my first time on here. I’m an Australian IB Pastor’s daughter. There’s smoke everywhere over here, just by the way. My friends house burnt down the other day.

One of the churches that we have had an interface with have suddenly come out as Post-Trib. If anyone knows David Cloud, he was out here just recently and did a full series of meetings with them and then found out AFTERWARDS (from my pastor brother) that they’ve been “studying” the subject of prophecy all year, and hey presto! The church is in for the guillotein. I’ve got friends in that church, and now they’re telling me they’re post-trib. It’s a bit lonely here in Australia. Most of our churches are hundreds of km apart. Apparently the States sometimes has more than one IB church in a big town! I can’t believe it! They must have more friends too then to make up for any losses.

I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful thoughts on a post-trib view (or pre-trib view, depending how you look at it).

As far as I can see, we are not appointed to wrath (and that meaning the whole 7 year tribulation). God will keep us “from the hour of temptation” that will come upon the whole earth”. 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by LYDIA WESTERN

[John Young]

1 hour ago, LYDIA WESTERN said:

I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful thoughts on a post-trib view (or pre-trib view, depending how you look at it).

Just remember Post-Trib rapture comes from the Reformed Covenant theology that says Israel and the church is the continuation of the same national covenant. (They believe God switched from the physical nation in the OT to a spiritual nation in the NT, and that the physical no longer has rights to the convent). This means that when Christ returns to gather the elect "after the tribulation" they believe this  means the rapture of the church and not the regathering of Israel. They believe "elect" is referring to the church believers and the rapture. So every thing referring Christ returning with the angels is to "rapture the church" and then deposit OT saved Israelites from heaven back to Israel. They believe The return of Christ is the gathering of the elect is the same as the Rapture of the church and the 144,000 come from heaven to earth. 

Pre-trib rapture comes form Dispensation theology which states the church and Israel are separate covenants and both continue into the NT. They believe The Rapture of the church, the return of Christ, and the regathering of Israel are all separate events. The believe the return of Christ with the angels "after the tribulation" to gather the elect means to gather the 144,000 Israelite to Jerusalem. The Rapture of the church however occurs by the Spirit leaving earth before "Jacob's trouble" (Israel's tribulation week).

[Alan]

Hello Lydia! Glad to have you here. Sorry to hear that your friends house burnt down the other day. The folks here are interested in Australia, their problems, the recent fires for example, and for the proclamation of the gospel in Australia. Recently a close pastor friend of mine, Pastor Shane Mallard, started on the deputation trail for Australia. 

Most folks here are familiar with brother David Cloud and highly respect him for his work as a missionary and in his publication, "O Timothy" magazine and fine books. I am sure that he wants to be a blessing to the folks at the church that he visited in Australia and help them in the correct biblical view of the pre-tribulation coming of Christ, the rapture, of the church.

Most folks here are of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church position.

After a careful study of the scriptures, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, it is my firm conviction that the pre-tribulation teaching is correct and that, as John explained briefly, why the post-trib rapture teaching is incorrect. What John Young wrote is entirely true and if you have specific questions why he said what he did he could explain in detail.

I am sure that if you have a specific passage that you have a question about the timing (not the exact date but whether the rapture is before or after the 7-Year Tribulation Period), or another question concerning why some folks believe in the post-trib position, we would gladly like to discuss it.

[LYDIA WESTERN]

Thankyou Mr. Young and Allan.

The funny thing is they have kept the distinction between church and Israel.

That’s interesting about your friend deputising for Australia. There are about 180 I.B churches in Australia. Most are in NSW, QLD and VIC. There are about 3 in Tasmania and 1 in Northern Territory. There are about 9 in South Australia (where I was born), 5 of which are in Adelaide city. My Dad started the first I.B church in South Australia about forty some years ago after coming back from bible college in Springfield Massouri (sorry can’t spell). He was actually raised church of Christ and had never heard of the I.Bs because there were hardly any in Australia back then. Actually there was one church called Calvary Baptist in S.A that had been going a year before he started his but he was almost the first anyway. Might aswell have been, there wasn’t anyone around. It was called Northside Baptist Church. Now my brother Simeon Western pastors the church. It wasn’t planned. There have been other pastors between Dad and him but that’s what ended up happening. We actually live in Bathurst, N.S.W now. 

The churches here are typically between 60-80 people. A hundred or more is considered big. Churches of 30-50 are very common also. Apart from the cities, churches are typically hundreds of KM apart. America has about 25 times the number of I.B churches as Australia. I believe you have around 9,200 or something like that. Australia has about 180 - 200 maybe that any one directory is aware of. Certainly not thousands anyway. 

There is not the same “circulation of the saints” over here, so the people you keep are those you win. Church growth here is quite slow and it is not because the pastors are necessarily doing anything wrong. So your brother in the Lord needn’t feel discouraged if it is not a fast growth. I know American missionaries that have been pastoring a flock of about twenty to thirty for years. Others have more but most churches are under a hundred. 

When Dad came back from the States, he did what he was taught to do when doing soul winning. But he couldn’t understand why people would pray and then not be interested and not come back. It worked well in the States. He eventually worked out that the Australians don’t have the Biblical background that Americans do. Aussies are serious but there is a greater risk of “picking green fruit” over here. Also, getting them to come forward at an invitation often scared them off too. So he ended up getting them to just stand where they were f they had prayed and then sit back down. He focussed a bit more on getting them to come to church a bit and doing some home visits rather than pushing them all through too quickly. Unless they seemed really ready of course. That’s just something to watch out for. I’m very pleased with his desire to come, however. I hope we will get a chance to meet him sometime. It’s not too far fetched because like i said, there aren’t a lot of us.

anyway, sorry I’m off topic. Maybe I should repost this as “evangelism in Australia” lol

I’ll ask my questions in the post trib thing in a little bit. I have to run and teach piano for now.

[John Young]

On 1/18/2020 at 1:47 AM, LYDIA WESTERN said:

suddenly come out as Post-Trib.

 

3 hours ago, LYDIA WESTERN said:

The funny thing is they have kept the distinction between church and Israel.

Such sudden change is probably the result of not being grounded in their professed doctrines in the first place. So when they were confronted with the Post trib view they were not able to explain the verses used in light of their professed theology. Rapture theology is considered an "end-result" theology. Which means it is built on the theology that comes before it and those who learn it don't realize its foundation doctrines so don't convert to the other theologies all at once. Don't be surprised if they come out in a year or two  as believing the Church replaces Israel as a nation and that God has given up on Israel as a nation and other views. Their new Post-Trib view, and the teachings of the one they learned it from will eventually change their foundational  dispensational views will slowly change to conform to Reformed covenant theology.

Edited January 22, 2020 by John Young

[LYDIA WESTERN]

Yes, I was actually thinking the same thing. David Cloud has done an extremely good job of trying to correct them, but they’re Arabs and it’s hard to change their mind. It’s a shame really. I know that Mr. Cloud and I both enjoyed the meetings that they had with him a few months ago. We had some good chats together. Actually, it was my brother, Simeon, who found out about it and let Mr. Cloud know. They’ve been back and forwards about it.

I was just interested to hear what anyone else had to add. I think you’re right though. They didn’t have a good understanding of pre-trib to start with. But false doctrine is also leaven and there is something appealing about it. It’s strange. 

I saw one of their “study sheets” that they had done up. They took Matthew 24 and ran it down the page chronologically and then added to the right all the verses from Thessalonians and Corinthians etc. One of the older men in their church is an old pastor and prophecy is his sweet spot. But they just kept the doctrinal “study” as a secret from him and the other older men of the faith and then came out with it after a year of studying it in the closet. But they actually had let a post-trib man onto membership and that’s how it started. The pastor said that he didn’t want to see books or charts and that “David Cloud’s books aren’t inspired”. But then he wants everyone to read the charts that he comes up with. 

He’s coming out super heated and reactive. It’s really really shocking to see. So weird. He and his two right hand men are Arabs. Not that I have anything against Arabs, but it’s a hot blooded mix. It’s either very good or very bad.

[DaChaser]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2020 at 1:47 AM, LYDIA WESTERN said:

This is my first time on here. I’m an Australian IB Pastor’s daughter. There’s smoke everywhere over here, just by the way. My friends house burnt down the other day.

One of the churches that we have had an interface with have suddenly come out as Post-Trib. If anyone knows David Cloud, he was out here just recently and did a full series of meetings with them and then found out AFTERWARDS (from my pastor brother) that they’ve been “studying” the subject of prophecy all year, and hey presto! The church is in for the guillotein. I’ve got friends in that church, and now they’re telling me they’re post-trib. It’s a bit lonely here in Australia. Most of our churches are hundreds of km apart. Apparently the States sometimes has more than one IB church in a big town! I can’t believe it! They must have more friends too then to make up for any losses.

I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful thoughts on a post-trib view (or pre-trib view, depending how you look at it).

As far as I can see, we are not appointed to wrath (and that meaning the whole 7 year tribulation). God will keep us “from the hour of temptation” that will come upon the whole earth”. 

 

 

I would say that Revelation 3, talking to the Philadelphia church, promised to be kept from that Hour, and also Chapter 4, when John goes up into heaven as a prefigure of the church rapturing out are the 2 best examples for pre trib. I see Mid trib supported by the 2 witnesses resurrecting to God mid trip, and also that the wrath of God starts mid trib, and the church is said to be spare the wrath of God. Post trib fits due to the fact that the second coming is  described to be the same event as what is called the rapture, as those holding to it see God protecting the Church as he did the Jews in Egypt during the plagues.

 

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[TomB]

At the LAST trump the Bible teaches. And they are the ones that came out of great tribulation it says in Revelation.  Jesus doesn’t come back twice to get his people.  He that shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved.  But the good news is that he will never leave us nor forsake us.  He said look up for your redemption draws nigh.  Though the mountains and hills be cast into the sea we will not be moved. He is our Rock and salvation.    Most people are deceived in this matter not understanding the nature of the tribulation or the book of Revelation.  We look for a new heavens and a new earth as it states in Isaiah and 2nd Peter; not a millennial rule on this sin cursed earth. 

[No Nicolaitans]

1 hour ago, TomB said:

 He that shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved.  

Hello.

Endure. What does that word mean?

 

[Alan]

On 4/8/2019 at 4:28 AM, Alan said:

 

Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”

“… after the tribulation ...” these events will take place.

Matthew 24:30, “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Revelation 1:7, “Behold, he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred's of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

Revelation 1:7 is the fulfillment of the prophecy by the prophet Zechariah. Zechariah 12:9-14, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.”

Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

“...with a great sound of a trumpet ...” In Numbers 10:1-10 God commanded Moses to have two trumpets of silver made for eight (8) reasons:

1. “For the calling of the assembly.”

2. “For the journeying of the camps.”

3. “For the princes to assemble at the tabernacle.”

4. “For an alarm.”

5. “For days of gladness.”

6. “For the solemn days.”

7. “For the beginning of the months.”

8. “For the sacrifice of the peace offerings.”

Two of the specific reasons was for the “calling of the assemblies and journeying of the camp.” Numbers 1:1 & 2, “And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them, for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.”

The context of the passage will tell us the reason for the blowing of the trumpet and who blows the trumpet. So, the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 was to call together, by angels, the Jews, the elect, from around the world to assemble the congregation in Israel. The 7 angels in Revelation 8:2 are given 7 trumpets to sound an alarm for war and for judgment and not for calling an assembly for any reason.

Therefore, the angels sounding trumpets in Matthew 24:31 are not connected to the 7 angels given 7 trumpets in Revelation 8:2

 

 

TomB,

The above study on the trumpets was taken from the following link:

 

3 hours ago, TomB said:

At the LAST trump the Bible teaches. And they are the ones that came out of great tribulation it says in Revelation.  Jesus doesn’t come back twice to get his people. 

TomB,

If you would carefully study the "Trumpets" in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testament, it is very clear that the7 trumpets in the book of Revelation, the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, and the "trump of God" as listed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are for different reasons and different times. The 7 trumpets in the book of Revelation are all for JUDGMENT and not for the calling of the assembly of Jews nor for the calling of the assembly of the church.

Alan

Edited February 21, 2020 by Alan
spelling

[DaveW]

Revelation 18 notes "trumpeters" (shall be heard no more in thee), so we can safely surmise that up to that point trumpeters were heard, and that means that trumpets had to be around.  But trumpets are not mentioned again in Scripture after that point, so the last trump was done away with just prior to Revelation 18:22.

That would have to be "the last trump", surely.

And the last mention of "horn" is in Revelation 17, but I don't think those ones "trumped" at all....... different kind of horn.

I think have shown that the last trump was not one of the judgement trumpets at all, but some unknown bloke playing just before Revelation 18.

I think I may have trumped you all.

Unless of course the last trump spoken of is Donald - does he have a son to carry on the name, or is he "the last Trump"?

[TomB]

There will be Christians on earth until the Last Day.  Jesus said THE SAME DAY that Noah entered their ark the flood came and destroyed all. Also the SAME DAY that Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone destroyed all.  Then he said EVEN THUS shall it be when the son of man is revealed. Two shall be in the field and the other left.  Look up for your redemption draws nigh. We are appointed to tribulation but not wrath.  Don’t confuse the Scriptures with many different last trumps or throne judgements.  The sun will be darkened when they shall say “peace and safety”.  I look for that new heavens and a new earth.  The Day of the Lord is at hand when he shall give a shout. The greatest earthquake ever will also commence.  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him to meet the Lord in the air.  It’s really not complicated.    

Edited February 22, 2020 by TomB
Left a part out

[TomB]

To answer no nicolatains, endure means to outlast and stay strong through the tribulation and the hour of temptation.  Don’t give in to the worlds demands.  He will reward your faithfulness. 

[DaveW]

I am not confusing last trumps.

I pointed to the very last trump.

[LYDIA WESTERN]

2 hours ago, TomB said:

Etc.We are appointed to tribulation but not wrath.  Don’t confuse the Scriptures with many different last trumps or throne judgements.  The sun will be darkened when they shall say “peace and safety”.  I look for that new heavens and a new earth.  The Day of the Lord is at hand when he shall give a shout. The greatest earthquake ever will also commence.  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him to meet the Lord in the air.  It’s really not complicated.    

Revelation 7:9,14
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. greek Word is “THE great tribulation”. And this is still in the first half. 

And yes, there will be multitudes of Christians on earth during the tribulation who will be converted. And these same multitudes will be beheaded. Write down on a piece of paper all the things “us Christians” will go through. If the first half of the tribulation isn’t wrath, then what is it? 

You cant hang your hat on one assumption that the trumpet Paul was referring to in Thessalonians is the last trumpet judgement. The last trump was sounded when it was time to move camp. The first trumpet got everyone packing their tents up and then there were some other calls and then the last trump was when everyone left. Paul is using a picture like he often does. Anyway, it’s not clear enough to hang a whole doctrine on. Actually, Revelation was A.D 96. 1 Corinthians was A.D 59. How could Paul be referring to the last trump of a vision that hadn’t happened yet?

When the Lord said “and then shall be great tribulation”, in the Greek there is not the definite article “THE great tribulation” as present in the other tribulation mentions. Things will ramp up, yes, but once again, you can’t hang a whole doctrine on it and then try to wrench all the other scriptures around to fit it.

And besides, if the rapture happened at the mid-point, all of Israel would be raptured because they’re saved by that point at the time of the Russian-Muslim invasion. There would not BE an Israel. Because the Bible says that ALL Israel will be saved in that day when the Lord defends them. Israel as a nation wouldn’t exist anymore for when the Lord comes again. 

Also, would there be any sheep left to divide from the goats at the end? Nothing but goats left on earth, right? For the last half?

Edited February 22, 2020 by LYDIA WESTERN