Saved before the Cross?????

[Baptist_Bible_Believer]

Okay. Granted, OT eternal security is not a subject that would normally be preached in a New Testament Bible Believing Church.

I am simply trying to be an honest Bible believer. I see a distinction between OT and NT salvation. The sealing of the Spirit, in my understanding, is what guarantees the security of the believer. I'm not going to pursue the matter as I would never wish to cause dissension among the brethren. I hope that I have not been excluded from fellowship as an outsider.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Baptist_Bible_Believer
typo

[DaveW]

What about "OK David talks as though he is pretty certain"?

It has nothing to do with what is preached in any church - it has only to do with what the Bible says.

David's words are words of certainty - He says "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

I will grant that the Bible doesn't actually say in this passage that he will go to him in Heaven, but the meaning is almost as certain as David's belief that they would be together again.

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As a result of the question I have started a quick study - I am by no means finished, but am already learning and enjoying it greatly.

I thought to myself "If David could speak with certainty in the passage above, then surely he would have spoken something of it in the Psalms.

So I started reading through Psalms with an eye to salvation specifically. 

It is important to understand that often the "salvation" that David speaks of in Psalms is physical salvation from attacking enemies, so we have to be careful to ensure we are talking about actual salvation, and not just the battles of this life.

But I couldn't wait to add a couple of these in even before I have come close to finishing this study.

And please read the passages fully, not just the portions I have quoted - context, context, context folks - don't just believe me.

Psa 17:15

(15)  As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Notice again the language of certainty - not maybe, but shall....

To me this sounds so much like:

1Jn 3:2

(2)  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And it sounds like David was looking forwards to this:

1Co 15:51-52

(51)  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

(52)  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Praise God for this promise, that apparently David knew about also. 

 

Psa 20:1-9

(1)  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;

(2)  Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;

(3)  Remember all thy offerings, and accept thy burnt sacrifice; Selah.

(4)  Grant thee according to thine own heart, and fulfil all thy counsel.

(5)  We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the LORD fulfil all thy petitions.

(6)  Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

(7)  Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

(8)  They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright.

(9)  Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call.

I know it doesn’t talk about eternal security as such, but it is a wonderful explanation of salvation by David.

 

I love the portion from vs 6 and 7

“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses”

“but we will remember the name of the Lord”

Sounds like salvation by grace through faith and not of works……

 

Psa 21:1-7

(1)  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!

(2)  Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.

(3)  For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.

(4)  He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

(5)  His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.

(6)  For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.

(7)  For the king trusteth in the LORD, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved.

 

 

Wow. Just WOW!!!!

The king shall rejoice in God’s salvation, and when HE ASKED LIFE OF GOD, GOD GAVE IT TO HIM, even length of days…… FOR EVER AND EVER!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I just say “Kapow!!!!!” that looks like smoke coming from that gun right there…..

And that is just a quick look through the first part of the book of Psalms, and that is without quoting the Psalms that I came across that imply eternal salvation without stating it plainly.

I could have probably taken a passage from about half of the first 20 Psalms that I think are hinting at it.

 

Thanks for the challenge - I will enjoy the continued study of this subject - probably won't hear much from me for a while now...….

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by DaveW

[Pastor Scott Markle]

By the way, Job also had an eternal security in his own future resurrection to stand with God through the power of his Living Redeemer. (See Job 19:25-27)

[Baptist_Bible_Believer]

Excellent point, brother Scott. I suppose my main contention was the issue of the sealing of the Spirit. It is hard to use David as an isolated case because throughout his whole life he was endowed with the spirit. He even worried that he would lose the Spirit in Psalm 51. But at no point are we aware of Job having the Spirit of God upon him for service.

My essential struggle with the issue was in Paul's explanation of the Gospel in I Corinthians 15 where it is specific that it is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yet, in Hebrews it does say that the Gospel was preached unto them as well as unto us. I'm sure that Isaiah 53 was part of that Gospel. Even Paul tells us that the Gospel he preached is "according to the Scriptures" -- so certainly the Gospel is in the Old Testament.

As mentioned above, I also believed that it is the earnest of the Spirit that assures our eternal salvation, and there is that verse that says "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his," yet Peter certainly speaks of it: "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

(btw, I used to live in Waterford, Mi until last year). Do you know Bob Nogalski?

[heartstrings]

13 hours ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

I appreciate the clarification.

I must add, though, that in 42 years as an independent Baptist I have never heard a preacher say that Old Testament believers have eternal security. Any thoughts?

I was going to mention Job 19:27 but Pastor Markle beat me to it. Also take a look at Psalm 23 where David said "and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever". David, also, was "secure" in the knowledge of where he was going to spend eternity..

[Jim_Alaska]

Excellent point Bro. Wayne. If we are to hold that salvation is the same for the OT as it is in the NT we are compelled to affirm that this includes eternal security.

 Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 

Surely this verse would apply to the salvation found only in Christ.

[DaveW]

I am afraid that to simply thow out everything that David wrote in the way you have is simply ridiculous.

And you are now introducing another subject.

David OBVIOUSLY believed he had eternal security.

The work of the Holy Spirit is another subject.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:45 AM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

My essential struggle with the issue was in Paul's explanation of the Gospel in I Corinthians 15 where it is specific that it is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yet, in Hebrews it does say that the Gospel was preached unto them as well as unto us. I'm sure that Isaiah 53 was part of that Gospel. Even Paul tells us that the Gospel he preached is "according to the Scriptures" -- so certainly the Gospel is in the Old Testament.

Brother "Baptist Bible Believer,"

You made a similar comment earlier in this thread discussion, as follows:

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 12:58 PM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

For years, I believed that folks were saved in the Old Testament by looking forward to the cross, and in the New Testament by looking back at the cross. I had to reject that view, even though that was the view of my professors back at Bible College. Who in the Old Testament even understood what a cross was? Sure, they had Moses' serpent on a pole - but did they visualize the cross that Christ would die on?

At the original time wherein I read that comment, I had a thought to express, but simply did not have the time to post it.  Now I have that time, so here it is --

I believe that your perspective concerning the gospel is, not a greatly, but SLIGHTLY off center.  The Old Testament believers most certainly were required to focus their faith upward and forward.  However, the focus of their faith was NOT required to be upon an EVENT (i.e. the cross).  Rather, the focus of their faith was required to be upon a PERSON, that is -- upon the Person of God's promised Messiah/Christ, and in relation to Him upon any information that God had revealed about Him by that point in time.  In like manner, we New Testament believers are required to focus our faith upward and backward.  However, the focus of our faith is also NOT required to be upon an EVENT (i.e. the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ).  Rather, the focus of our faith is also required to be upon a Person, that is -- upon the Person of God's promised Messiah/Christ, and in relation to Him upon that information which God has revealed about Him.  We are NOT saved through faith in the CROSS of Christ.  Rather, we are saved through faith in the CHRIST of the cross and resurrection.  Even so, although the divinely revealed information about the promised Messiah/Christ has progressively become more detailed over the history of Scriptural revelation, the opportunity to place faith in the PERSON of God's promised Messiah/Christ has EVER been available from the time of Adam and Eve's sin unto the present time.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:45 AM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

As mentioned above, I also believed that it is the earnest of the Spirit that assures our eternal salvation . . .

Yes, I also took note of a similar comment in one of your earlier posting, as follows:

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:20 PM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

I am simply trying to be an honest Bible believer. I see a distinction between OT and NT salvation. The sealing of the Spirit, in my understanding, is what guarantees the security of the believer.

I myself would certainly acknowledge that the sealing of the Holy Spirit is an important aspect for the New Testament believer's eternal security.  However, I would contend that the sealing of the Holy Spirit is NOT the only layer in the foundation of our eternal security, but that it is only one among a number of layers in the foundation of our eternal security.  Furthermore, while I would acknowledge that the Old Testament believer did NOT possess the sealing of the indwelling Holy Spirit, I would contend that they did possess the various OTHER layers in the foundation of their eternal security.

Consider one of those layers as follows:

1.  Does the epistle to the Romans indicate that Old Testament justification and New Testament justification are the same before God?
2.  Does the epistle to the Romans indicate that this justification before God is an eternal, unalterable justification?
3.  Does the epistle to the Romans indicate that those who are justified before God thereby cannot be separated from the love of God by ANY force?

[Baptist_Bible_Believer]

Thank you for that as well. And I did come across Lot again. If he isn't a proof of eternal security, I don't know what is. I certainly agree with you that there are "layers" to faith. Of course, there will be things about our salvation that none will totally understand until we are in the presence of the One that provided it.

A few times I wondered, what difference does our understanding of Old Testament salvation make. It doesn't change anything to those that lived it, they are long in paradise. We are living in a different dispensation. But it is crucial that we treat the whole counsel of God correctly. My thoughts today are that Old Testament saints were just as saved as New Testament saved, they enjoyed the same promise of eternal security, and God is good.

Well, I do have one issue. Saul was given the Holy Spirit, but that Spirit departed from him. His trip to Endor and Samuel's rebuke makes me question his salvation - but that's a different discussion.

I appreciate your kind, and patient, replies.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

9 minutes ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

Well, I do have one issue. Saul was given the Holy Spirit, but that Spirit departed from him. His trip to Endor and Samuel's rebuke makes me question his salvation - but that's a different discussion.

I appreciate your kind, and patient, replies.

Brother "Baptist Bible Believer,"

Concerning King Saul, I would contend that his relationship with the Holy Spirit, about which you referenced, was NOT that of His regeneration, but that of His anointing for service (different, but similar, to the filling of the Holy Spirit for the New Testament believer).  I would contend the King David was speaking concerning the same matter for his own life in Psalm 51.  Furthermore, I would contend that such a work of the Holy Spirit could be lost by an Old Testament believer without that Old Testament believer losing his or her eternal security.

Concerning Lot, most certainly I would consider him as an example of eternal security in spite of his personal unfaithfulness.

Concerning your other question:

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:45 AM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

(btw, I used to live in Waterford, Mi until last year). Do you know Bob Nogalski?

 I do not recall anyone by that name; however --

1.  My circle of relationships is fairly small (although sometimes I find that it is bigger than I had imagined).
2.  Names and I do not get along well in my memory banks, so the problem may just be a memory problem on my part.

[DaChaser]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 7:08 AM, DaveW said:

I always find it interesting when people try to suggest that salvation was not possible before the cross, or when they at least say that salvation was different before the cross.

I find it interesting because Paul doesn't agree with either of those propositions.

How can I state it so categorically? Oh I don't know...….

2Ti 3:15
(15)  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Which Scriptures do you suppose that Timothy knew from his childhood?

Act 17:10-11
(10)  And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
(11)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Which Scriptures do suppose the Bereans searched as they checked whether the things that Paul preached were so?

 

Well, When Timothy was a child I doubt that they had much in the way of the New Testament written, and the Bereans were checking before at least the vast majority of the NT was written.

Little Timmy knew the Holy Scriptures which are able to make him wise UNTO SALVATION. BEFORE most if not all of the NT was written.

That means that Paul said to Timothy that the OT Scriptures could tell someone how to be saved the NT way - through faith in Jesus Christ...………..

And what about those Bereans - they searched the Scriptures to check on what Paul was preaching. They searched the OT Scriptures to check on what Paul was preaching.

What was Paul preaching?

Act 17:2-3
(2)  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
(3)  Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
 

Notice that it was his manner to preach this, and what he preached was that Jesus Christ had to suffer and die, and rise again from the dead.

The Bereans believed Paul's preaching because hen they checked out the OT to see if Paul was preaching truth, they found it was true - FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT - and they got saved.

This means that the OT told people how to be saved through Jesus Christ.

Timothy read the Old Testament, believed it, and got saved - apparently when he was a little child.

The Bereans read the Old Testament, believed it, and got saved.

And in Timothy it says that those Scriptures are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus Christ……. pretty plain to me - the OT tells someone how to be saved through Jesus Christ.

And the Bereans were able to confirm in the OT, that salvation is through Jesus Christ, because that is what Paul was preaching.

I dunno…… I am just a dumb bloke...…. but it seems pretty obvious to me.

The OT tells about Jesus Christ, and what He had to do to save men from their sins - people just had to believe it, just as now they just have to believe it.

 

The basis for anyone who has ever been saved by God was the Cross of Christ, as it has always been saved by Grace alone, received thru faith alone.

[Jerry]

I believe in dispensationalism - in the sense that God has seven clear, distinct periods of mankind’s history where man was governed or lived differently (whether past, present, or future). The Greek word for dispensation literally means “house rules/laws”. Salvation has always been by grace through faith in the (coming - OT) Redeemer and the sacrifice He would make - whether understood by type or by actual Gospel presentation. Man’s amount of knowledge has different, the rules whereby he was to be governed have changed (ie. the NT believer lives differently than Israel under the Law, and Adam and Eve in their innocence in the Garden), etc. but believers have always been saved by grace through faith.