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DaveW

Saved before the Cross?????

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Luke 2:25-35 King James Version (KJV)

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

 

Every single verse in this passage indicates that Simeon was already a child of God, looking FORWARD toward to Christ.

He was an "old testament saint".

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I preface my thoughts by saying that I believe that the Old Testament believer was just as saved as any saint in the New Testament. Their destiny was the same except that for one was the promise of the land for an eternal inheritance and the other is promised a mansion in heaven.

Saying that, however, I must also ask . . .

Could an Old Testament saint lose their salvation? Was there a belief in an unconditional eternal security before the cross? Did the Law have anything to do with salvation in the Old Testament? What would happen if a saved Old Testament saint decided to stop participating in the sacrifices and offerings?

<edited to remark: I'm not sure why the site merges separate posts . . . it was my intention that this be a prefatory post>

The Jews read and studied their Bibles from a child and no doubt memorized many, many passages, including Isaiah 53. Their teachers taught them that it refered to Israel as a nation, not to a suffering Saviour. If you ask a Rabbi today what Isaiah 53 means he will simply tell you that he is not trained in such knowledge. From what I understand of my Bible, when the Bereans heard Paul preach the same message that a Eunuch from Ethiopia heard they turned to their Bibles and compared Paul's words with Isaiah's and found themselves in agreement.

Paul, in I Corinthians 15:2-4 says that the Gospel is "according to the Scriptures," so without doubt the biblical method of salvation was there from Genesis 3:15 and all the way through -- but no one understood it.

Timothy also was taught from a child the Scriptures so that when he heard the application it became clear and he understood it. He had the wisdom, no doubt from Proverbs, and since Wisdom in Proverbs is the embodiment of Jesus Christ, he readily understood the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Of course, Jews were saved under the Old Testament economy . . . but New Testament eternal salvation with the sealing of the Holy Spirit of God? Nope.

Peter wrote:

"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into" (I Peter 1:11-12 KJV).

The key phrase is "the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven," that is, the gospel was preached after the day of Pentecost. Prior to than, every time Isaiah 53 was read in the synagogue, the gospel was being preached as to the death of Christ, but who understood it? It was not mixed with faith in them that heard it.

For years, I believed that folks were saved in the Old Testament by looking forward to the cross, and in the New Testament by looking back at the cross. I had to reject that view, even though that was the view of my professors back at Bible College. Who in the Old Testament even understood what a cross was? Sure, they had Moses' serpent on a pole - but did they visualize the cross that Christ would die on?

Edited by Baptist_Bible_Believer
merging posts?

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No. The sacrifices and observances of the law never saved anyone; it was always by grace through faith.

King James Bible  Par ▾ 

hebrews 10

 

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

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1 hour ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

Reminds me of being back in Bible college and our daily theological discussions in the coffee shop. Ah, those were the days! That was also where I learned that the college was crawling with Briders.

I'm not a Baptist brider but I am a New Jerusalem bride birther, by virtue of salvation, who happens to be a baptist in doctrine. :29_smirk:

Psalm 87:5-6 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. 6 The Lord shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

Revelation 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 21:9-14 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 on the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

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I had this one guy tell me that his grandmother never made it to heaven because even though she accepted the Lord as Saviour, she was never baptized in a baptist church that could not trace their rite of baptism in an unbroken line to John the Baptist. I called him a member of the Baptist Church of Christ, in Christian love, of course. He told me I wouldn't make it either.

Amen! We are the Bride of Christ and will be arrayed in fine linen, which is the righteousness of saints! But I'm no bride of some church.

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Men were saved by faith in the OT.

Galatians 3:6 KJV
[6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:1-5 KJV
[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

the sacrifices and rituals of the law never endowed salvation or justification. Salvation has Always been by faith alone and always will be. 

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I do not dispute in any fashion that Abraham was saved by promise. I have used Romans chapter 4 many times while witnessing to people - especially to people that insist that one needs to do good works in order to go to heaven. However, by using Abraham, we are aware that he lived 400 years prior to the law even being given. Israel insisted that God give them that law because whatever He told them to do, they would do it.

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator" (Galatians 3:19 KJV).

The Law concludes man under sin. The sacrifices, indeed, do not saved . . . but they are a propitiation for sins--a covering--and as long as the sin was covered the Israelite was in the covenant.

Is that disputed? Is there eternal security in the Old Testament for the Israelite that refused to continue in the covenant relationship with God?

I am not saying that a person in the Old Testament could not be saved (if saved is the proper word here), but I am saying that there are some real distinctions dispensationally.

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"Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. And it shall come to pass, when the LORD thy God hath brought thee in unto the land whither thou goest to possess it, that thou shalt put the blessing upon mount Gerizim, and the curse upon mount Ebal. Are they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the champaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh? For ye shall pass over Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein. And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day" (Deuteronomy 11:26-32 KJV).

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Exactly. However, for an even more in-depth description, I would point to chapters 28-30 of Deuteronomy...there's more, but those three chapters sum it up nicely.

Obedience to the law would bring physical blessings.

Disobedience to the law would bring physical curses.

Not once is salvation mentioned for obedience, and not once is being lost mentioned for disobedience.

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David seemed pretty sure......

2Sa 12:22-23
(22)  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
(23)  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
 

I have never preached specifically about OT eternal security, other than to show from the Bible that salvation has always been the same.

If it has always been the same, then …… it has always been the same - eternal security included.

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Okay. Granted, OT eternal security is not a subject that would normally be preached in a New Testament Bible Believing Church.

I am simply trying to be an honest Bible believer. I see a distinction between OT and NT salvation. The sealing of the Spirit, in my understanding, is what guarantees the security of the believer. I'm not going to pursue the matter as I would never wish to cause dissension among the brethren. I hope that I have not been excluded from fellowship as an outsider.

Edited by Baptist_Bible_Believer
typo

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What about "OK David talks as though he is pretty certain"?

It has nothing to do with what is preached in any church - it has only to do with what the Bible says.

David's words are words of certainty - He says "I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

I will grant that the Bible doesn't actually say in this passage that he will go to him in Heaven, but the meaning is almost as certain as David's belief that they would be together again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As a result of the question I have started a quick study - I am by no means finished, but am already learning and enjoying it greatly.

I thought to myself "If David could speak with certainty in the passage above, then surely he would have spoken something of it in the Psalms.

So I started reading through Psalms with an eye to salvation specifically. 

It is important to understand that often the "salvation" that David speaks of in Psalms is physical salvation from attacking enemies, so we have to be careful to ensure we are talking about actual salvation, and not just the battles of this life.

But I couldn't wait to add a couple of these in even before I have come close to finishing this study.

And please read the passages fully, not just the portions I have quoted - context, context, context folks - don't just believe me.

Psa 17:15

(15)  As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Notice again the language of certainty - not maybe, but shall....

To me this sounds so much like:

1Jn 3:2

(2)  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

And it sounds like David was looking forwards to this:

1Co 15:51-52

(51)  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

(52)  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Praise God for this promise, that apparently David knew about also. 

 

Psa 20:1-9

(1)  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee;

(2)  Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;

(3)  Remember all thy offerings, and accept thy burnt sacrifice; Selah.

(4)  Grant thee according to thine own heart, and fulfil all thy counsel.

(5)  We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the LORD fulfil all thy petitions.

(6)  Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.

(7)  Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.

(8)  They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright.

(9)  Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call.

I know it doesn’t talk about eternal security as such, but it is a wonderful explanation of salvation by David.

 

I love the portion from vs 6 and 7

“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses”

“but we will remember the name of the Lord”

Sounds like salvation by grace through faith and not of works……

 

Psa 21:1-7

(1)  To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!

(2)  Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.

(3)  For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.

(4)  He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

(5)  His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.

(6)  For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.

(7)  For the king trusteth in the LORD, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved.

 

 

Wow. Just WOW!!!!

The king shall rejoice in God’s salvation, and when HE ASKED LIFE OF GOD, GOD GAVE IT TO HIM, even length of days…… FOR EVER AND EVER!!!!!!!!!!!

Can I just say “Kapow!!!!!” that looks like smoke coming from that gun right there…..

And that is just a quick look through the first part of the book of Psalms, and that is without quoting the Psalms that I came across that imply eternal salvation without stating it plainly.

I could have probably taken a passage from about half of the first 20 Psalms that I think are hinting at it.

 

Thanks for the challenge - I will enjoy the continued study of this subject - probably won't hear much from me for a while now...….

 

 

Edited by DaveW

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Excellent point, brother Scott. I suppose my main contention was the issue of the sealing of the Spirit. It is hard to use David as an isolated case because throughout his whole life he was endowed with the spirit. He even worried that he would lose the Spirit in Psalm 51. But at no point are we aware of Job having the Spirit of God upon him for service.

My essential struggle with the issue was in Paul's explanation of the Gospel in I Corinthians 15 where it is specific that it is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yet, in Hebrews it does say that the Gospel was preached unto them as well as unto us. I'm sure that Isaiah 53 was part of that Gospel. Even Paul tells us that the Gospel he preached is "according to the Scriptures" -- so certainly the Gospel is in the Old Testament.

As mentioned above, I also believed that it is the earnest of the Spirit that assures our eternal salvation, and there is that verse that says "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his," yet Peter certainly speaks of it: "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

(btw, I used to live in Waterford, Mi until last year). Do you know Bob Nogalski?

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13 hours ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

I appreciate the clarification.

I must add, though, that in 42 years as an independent Baptist I have never heard a preacher say that Old Testament believers have eternal security. Any thoughts?

I was going to mention Job 19:27 but Pastor Markle beat me to it. Also take a look at Psalm 23 where David said "and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever". David, also, was "secure" in the knowledge of where he was going to spend eternity..

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Excellent point Bro. Wayne. If we are to hold that salvation is the same for the OT as it is in the NT we are compelled to affirm that this includes eternal security.

 Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 

Surely this verse would apply to the salvation found only in Christ.

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I am afraid that to simply thow out everything that David wrote in the way you have is simply ridiculous.

And you are now introducing another subject.

David OBVIOUSLY believed he had eternal security.

The work of the Holy Spirit is another subject.

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On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:45 AM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

My essential struggle with the issue was in Paul's explanation of the Gospel in I Corinthians 15 where it is specific that it is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yet, in Hebrews it does say that the Gospel was preached unto them as well as unto us. I'm sure that Isaiah 53 was part of that Gospel. Even Paul tells us that the Gospel he preached is "according to the Scriptures" -- so certainly the Gospel is in the Old Testament.

Brother "Baptist Bible Believer,"

You made a similar comment earlier in this thread discussion, as follows:

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 12:58 PM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

For years, I believed that folks were saved in the Old Testament by looking forward to the cross, and in the New Testament by looking back at the cross. I had to reject that view, even though that was the view of my professors back at Bible College. Who in the Old Testament even understood what a cross was? Sure, they had Moses' serpent on a pole - but did they visualize the cross that Christ would die on?

At the original time wherein I read that comment, I had a thought to express, but simply did not have the time to post it.  Now I have that time, so here it is --

I believe that your perspective concerning the gospel is, not a greatly, but SLIGHTLY off center.  The Old Testament believers most certainly were required to focus their faith upward and forward.  However, the focus of their faith was NOT required to be upon an EVENT (i.e. the cross).  Rather, the focus of their faith was required to be upon a PERSON, that is -- upon the Person of God's promised Messiah/Christ, and in relation to Him upon any information that God had revealed about Him by that point in time.  In like manner, we New Testament believers are required to focus our faith upward and backward.  However, the focus of our faith is also NOT required to be upon an EVENT (i.e. the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ).  Rather, the focus of our faith is also required to be upon a Person, that is -- upon the Person of God's promised Messiah/Christ, and in relation to Him upon that information which God has revealed about Him.  We are NOT saved through faith in the CROSS of Christ.  Rather, we are saved through faith in the CHRIST of the cross and resurrection.  Even so, although the divinely revealed information about the promised Messiah/Christ has progressively become more detailed over the history of Scriptural revelation, the opportunity to place faith in the PERSON of God's promised Messiah/Christ has EVER been available from the time of Adam and Eve's sin unto the present time.

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:45 AM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

As mentioned above, I also believed that it is the earnest of the Spirit that assures our eternal salvation . . .

Yes, I also took note of a similar comment in one of your earlier posting, as follows:

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 9:20 PM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

I am simply trying to be an honest Bible believer. I see a distinction between OT and NT salvation. The sealing of the Spirit, in my understanding, is what guarantees the security of the believer.

I myself would certainly acknowledge that the sealing of the Holy Spirit is an important aspect for the New Testament believer's eternal security.  However, I would contend that the sealing of the Holy Spirit is NOT the only layer in the foundation of our eternal security, but that it is only one among a number of layers in the foundation of our eternal security.  Furthermore, while I would acknowledge that the Old Testament believer did NOT possess the sealing of the indwelling Holy Spirit, I would contend that they did possess the various OTHER layers in the foundation of their eternal security.

Consider one of those layers as follows:

1.  Does the epistle to the Romans indicate that Old Testament justification and New Testament justification are the same before God?
2.  Does the epistle to the Romans indicate that this justification before God is an eternal, unalterable justification?
3.  Does the epistle to the Romans indicate that those who are justified before God thereby cannot be separated from the love of God by ANY force?

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Thank you for that as well. And I did come across Lot again. If he isn't a proof of eternal security, I don't know what is. I certainly agree with you that there are "layers" to faith. Of course, there will be things about our salvation that none will totally understand until we are in the presence of the One that provided it.

A few times I wondered, what difference does our understanding of Old Testament salvation make. It doesn't change anything to those that lived it, they are long in paradise. We are living in a different dispensation. But it is crucial that we treat the whole counsel of God correctly. My thoughts today are that Old Testament saints were just as saved as New Testament saved, they enjoyed the same promise of eternal security, and God is good.

Well, I do have one issue. Saul was given the Holy Spirit, but that Spirit departed from him. His trip to Endor and Samuel's rebuke makes me question his salvation - but that's a different discussion.

I appreciate your kind, and patient, replies.

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9 minutes ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

Well, I do have one issue. Saul was given the Holy Spirit, but that Spirit departed from him. His trip to Endor and Samuel's rebuke makes me question his salvation - but that's a different discussion.

I appreciate your kind, and patient, replies.

Brother "Baptist Bible Believer,"

Concerning King Saul, I would contend that his relationship with the Holy Spirit, about which you referenced, was NOT that of His regeneration, but that of His anointing for service (different, but similar, to the filling of the Holy Spirit for the New Testament believer).  I would contend the King David was speaking concerning the same matter for his own life in Psalm 51.  Furthermore, I would contend that such a work of the Holy Spirit could be lost by an Old Testament believer without that Old Testament believer losing his or her eternal security.

Concerning Lot, most certainly I would consider him as an example of eternal security in spite of his personal unfaithfulness.

Concerning your other question:

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:45 AM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

(btw, I used to live in Waterford, Mi until last year). Do you know Bob Nogalski?

 I do not recall anyone by that name; however --

1.  My circle of relationships is fairly small (although sometimes I find that it is bigger than I had imagined).
2.  Names and I do not get along well in my memory banks, so the problem may just be a memory problem on my part.

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