Saved before the Cross?????

[DaveW]

I always find it interesting when people try to suggest that salvation was not possible before the cross, or when they at least say that salvation was different before the cross.

I find it interesting because Paul doesn't agree with either of those propositions.

How can I state it so categorically? Oh I don't know...….

2Ti 3:15
(15)  And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Which Scriptures do you suppose that Timothy knew from his childhood?

Act 17:10-11
(10)  And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
(11)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Which Scriptures do suppose the Bereans searched as they checked whether the things that Paul preached were so?

 

Well, When Timothy was a child I doubt that they had much in the way of the New Testament written, and the Bereans were checking before at least the vast majority of the NT was written.

Little Timmy knew the Holy Scriptures which are able to make him wise UNTO SALVATION. BEFORE most if not all of the NT was written.

That means that Paul said to Timothy that the OT Scriptures could tell someone how to be saved the NT way - through faith in Jesus Christ...………..

And what about those Bereans - they searched the Scriptures to check on what Paul was preaching. They searched the OT Scriptures to check on what Paul was preaching.

What was Paul preaching?

Act 17:2-3
(2)  And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
(3)  Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
 

Notice that it was his manner to preach this, and what he preached was that Jesus Christ had to suffer and die, and rise again from the dead.

The Bereans believed Paul's preaching because hen they checked out the OT to see if Paul was preaching truth, they found it was true - FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT - and they got saved.

This means that the OT told people how to be saved through Jesus Christ.

Timothy read the Old Testament, believed it, and got saved - apparently when he was a little child.

The Bereans read the Old Testament, believed it, and got saved.

And in Timothy it says that those Scriptures are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith in Jesus Christ……. pretty plain to me - the OT tells someone how to be saved through Jesus Christ.

And the Bereans were able to confirm in the OT, that salvation is through Jesus Christ, because that is what Paul was preaching.

I dunno…… I am just a dumb bloke...…. but it seems pretty obvious to me.

The OT tells about Jesus Christ, and what He had to do to save men from their sins - people just had to believe it, just as now they just have to believe it.

 

[heartstrings]

 

Luke 2:25-35 King James Version (KJV)

²⁵ And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

²⁶ And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

²⁷ And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

²⁸ Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

²⁹ Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

³⁰ For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

³¹ Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

³² A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

 

Every single verse in this passage indicates that Simeon was already a child of God, looking FORWARD toward to Christ.

He was an "old testament saint".

[Baptist_Bible_Believer]

I preface my thoughts by saying that I believe that the Old Testament believer was just as saved as any saint in the New Testament. Their destiny was the same except that for one was the promise of the land for an eternal inheritance and the other is promised a mansion in heaven.

Saying that, however, I must also ask . . .

Could an Old Testament saint lose their salvation? Was there a belief in an unconditional eternal security before the cross? Did the Law have anything to do with salvation in the Old Testament? What would happen if a saved Old Testament saint decided to stop participating in the sacrifices and offerings?

<edited to remark: I'm not sure why the site merges separate posts . . . it was my intention that this be a prefatory post>

The Jews read and studied their Bibles from a child and no doubt memorized many, many passages, including Isaiah 53. Their teachers taught them that it refered to Israel as a nation, not to a suffering Saviour. If you ask a Rabbi today what Isaiah 53 means he will simply tell you that he is not trained in such knowledge. From what I understand of my Bible, when the Bereans heard Paul preach the same message that a Eunuch from Ethiopia heard they turned to their Bibles and compared Paul's words with Isaiah's and found themselves in agreement.

Paul, in I Corinthians 15:2-4 says that the Gospel is "according to the Scriptures," so without doubt the biblical method of salvation was there from Genesis 3:15 and all the way through -- but no one understood it.

Timothy also was taught from a child the Scriptures so that when he heard the application it became clear and he understood it. He had the wisdom, no doubt from Proverbs, and since Wisdom in Proverbs is the embodiment of Jesus Christ, he readily understood the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Of course, Jews were saved under the Old Testament economy . . . but New Testament eternal salvation with the sealing of the Holy Spirit of God? Nope.

Peter wrote:

"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into" (I Peter 1:11-12 KJV).

The key phrase is "the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven," that is, the gospel was preached after the day of Pentecost. Prior to than, every time Isaiah 53 was read in the synagogue, the gospel was being preached as to the death of Christ, but who understood it? It was not mixed with faith in them that heard it.

For years, I believed that folks were saved in the Old Testament by looking forward to the cross, and in the New Testament by looking back at the cross. I had to reject that view, even though that was the view of my professors back at Bible College. Who in the Old Testament even understood what a cross was? Sure, they had Moses' serpent on a pole - but did they visualize the cross that Christ would die on?

Edited January 19, 2019 by Baptist_Bible_Believer
merging posts?

[heartstrings]

No. The sacrifices and observances of the law never saved anyone; it was always by grace through faith.

King James Bible

Par ▾

hebrews 10

 

1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

[Jim_Alaska]

Great topic and discussion, thanks to all who participate.  

[Baptist_Bible_Believer]

Reminds me of being back in Bible college and our daily theological discussions in the coffee shop. Ah, those were the days! That was also where I learned that the college was crawling with Briders.

[John Young]

1 hour ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

Reminds me of being back in Bible college and our daily theological discussions in the coffee shop. Ah, those were the days! That was also where I learned that the college was crawling with Briders.

I'm not a Baptist brider but I am a New Jerusalem bride birther, by virtue of salvation, who happens to be a baptist in doctrine. 

Psalm 87:5-6 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. 6 The Lord shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.

Revelation 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Revelation 21:9-14 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 on the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

[Baptist_Bible_Believer]

I had this one guy tell me that his grandmother never made it to heaven because even though she accepted the Lord as Saviour, she was never baptized in a baptist church that could not trace their rite of baptism in an unbroken line to John the Baptist. I called him a member of the Baptist Church of Christ, in Christian love, of course. He told me I wouldn't make it either.

Amen! We are the Bride of Christ and will be arrayed in fine linen, which is the righteousness of saints! But I'm no bride of some church.

[Jordan Kurecki]

Men were saved by faith in the OT.

Galatians 3:6 KJV
[6] Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Romans 4:1-5 KJV
[1] What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? [2] For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. [3] For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [4] Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. [5] But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

the sacrifices and rituals of the law never endowed salvation or justification. Salvation has Always been by faith alone and always will be. 

[Baptist_Bible_Believer]

I do not dispute in any fashion that Abraham was saved by promise. I have used Romans chapter 4 many times while witnessing to people - especially to people that insist that one needs to do good works in order to go to heaven. However, by using Abraham, we are aware that he lived 400 years prior to the law even being given. Israel insisted that God give them that law because whatever He told them to do, they would do it.

"Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator" (Galatians 3:19 KJV).

The Law concludes man under sin. The sacrifices, indeed, do not saved . . . but they are a propitiation for sins--a covering--and as long as the sin was covered the Israelite was in the covenant.

Is that disputed? Is there eternal security in the Old Testament for the Israelite that refused to continue in the covenant relationship with God?

I am not saying that a person in the Old Testament could not be saved (if saved is the proper word here), but I am saying that there are some real distinctions dispensationally.

[No Nicolaitans]

What were the results of obedience to the law?

What were the results of disobedience to the law?

 

[Baptist_Bible_Believer]

"Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known. And it shall come to pass, when the LORD thy God hath brought thee in unto the land whither thou goest to possess it, that thou shalt put the blessing upon mount Gerizim, and the curse upon mount Ebal. Are they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the champaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh? For ye shall pass over Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein. And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day" (Deuteronomy 11:26-32 KJV).

[No Nicolaitans]

Exactly. However, for an even more in-depth description, I would point to chapters 28-30 of Deuteronomy...there's more, but those three chapters sum it up nicely.

Obedience to the law would bring physical blessings.

Disobedience to the law would bring physical curses.

Not once is salvation mentioned for obedience, and not once is being lost mentioned for disobedience.

[Baptist_Bible_Believer]

I appreciate the clarification.

I must add, though, that in 42 years as an independent Baptist I have never heard a preacher say that Old Testament believers have eternal security. Any thoughts?

[DaveW]

David seemed pretty sure......

2Sa 12:22-23
(22)  And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
(23)  But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
 

I have never preached specifically about OT eternal security, other than to show from the Bible that salvation has always been the same.

If it has always been the same, then …… it has always been the same - eternal security included.