Eternal Security vs O.S.A.S

[HappyChristian]

I think both of you need to take a step back and breathe. It seems that you are talking at each other, saying much the same thing. For some reason you've rubbed each other the wrong way (at least that is certainly my impression of your interactions in this and other threads).

Sadly, I do know of Christians who have stupidly said things like "you can go murder your grandmother now and you'll still go to Heaven." My mother's best friend was told this when she got saved as a teenager. It's no wonder she had no interest in learning anything more about the Lord.

The fact of the matter is that eternal security is a Bible doctrine, and we are promised it in God's Word. We do not persevere, we are preserved.  Christianity has, in many instances, equated OSAS with eternal security (and Omega is correct that there are minute differences between the two; but minute is the key...). Because once we are saved, we are saved. Period. And that is something with which the two of you are in agreement, even if you don't seem to realize it.

So, let's, as I said, take a step back and a breath. And let's rejoice that we will meet in Heaven - and we won't talk at cross purposes! 

[*Light*]

*Omega takes a step back and breathes* 

[BabeinChrist]

Ok, I took HappyChristian's advice. (Which was helpful, btw, thank you HC)

Just so we're clear, I am not trolling, instigating debate or attempting to sow discord amongst brethren. I tend to be a very straightforward woman & I hope that does not come off as being abrasive because I really do not mean it that way. 

I apologize if I have rubbed anyone here the wrong way, including you, Daniel. 

I am struggling to understand this teaching, because I have not heard it before, and have never even met anyone who believes in eternal security that does NOT believe OSAS.

It just doesn't make sense to me, so I'm trying to see what I'm missing, and hoping someone more seasoned in this particular subject can help fill in the missing pieces.

So, here's where I am at with this.....From what I've studied, & what I've heard preached, OSAS IS the doctrine referring to the eternal security of the Believer.

if anyone else understands this differently, please feel free to let me know.

Kind Regards,

Claire

Edited December 14, 2017 by BabeinChrist
Typo darn auto-correct

[*Light*]

Absolutely no offense taken. :) As HappyChristian said, the differences are minute in detail, and not very difficult to understand. I am 61 years old and have been studying biblical doctrines for almost 30 years, especially doctrines regarding Salvation. I have done public debates on Eternal Security with proponents of "Conditional Security", and those who believe that we can lose our Salvation. So if you're still having difficulty differentiating between Eternal Security and OSAS, then it's probably because the word choices that I use are poor. It's also that I'm having trouble with my memory these days. There are several Pastors on this board, and I am certain that they can explain it to you more articulately and eloquently than I can. So feel free to reach out to them. I am sure that they would be willing to help you out, if they have the time to do so.

God Bless,

Daniel

[HappyChristian]

One thing of which to be aware: most Calvinists (or those who follow reformed doctrine) are against the idea of OSAS for simply because: they do not believe in an individual's free will acceptance of Christ as Savior.  They believe that the elect must persevere in order to prove out that they are, indeed, part of the elect. And, should they "unpersevere" (stray away from the paths of righteousness), that is proof of never having been part of the elect to begin with. 

We are indeed always saved, once we are truly saved. However, there is an easy believism that has permeated Christianity that causes problems. One of those problems is false profession. Another is false security. Salvation is simple. It truly is. But it does involve repentance, which far too many people have popularized now as a "work" and therefore cannot be part of salvation. 

The fine line is that many of those who pray a prayer are trusting in that prayer, rather than the person of Christ. Assurance comes from the fact that they prayed. And as they continue in life, regardless of what they become involved in, they look back to that prayer and assure themselves (or their family assures themselves) that "once saved, always saved."

Two examples that my husband and I just discussed come to mind. We know two young men who we watched grow up...both of them made professions as children. And, boy, did they know scripture! And yet...they are both homosexual and proud of it. They are both "married" and successful. No hint of any conviction, no "doubts" that they are indeed saved, because "once saved, always saved."

Now, I know folks might say that we cannot judge the heart, so maybe they are. I'm sorry, but that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible does NOT teach that anyone will LOSE their salvation. But it DOES teach that there are false professors.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit - we have an apple tree that has been dying for a while. The fruit has not been very good at all.

This is true of people as well. We are all corrupt until we are truly saved. If we make a profession, but our fruit is corrupt, we are not saved. That does NOT mean a saved person will never sin. It DOES mean that a saved person will be convicted because he or she is indwelt by Almighty God, and God is, upon salvation, working to form us to the image of His Son. God is not going to allow His child to live in continual, habitual abomination. 

Now, let me again say that once we are saved, we are always saved. But the term has become a mantra for those who want to convince themselves that they can willfully and continually sin and be saved - and no conviction of sin, no consequence of that continual, willful sin. 

There is a balance - once we are saved, we are saved. We are still in our physical bodies, and so there will be sin. But a truly born-again believer will be convicted - and if the person doesn't respond to the conviction, spiritual spanking will follow somehow (else, the Bible says, we are not His children).  If none of the happens, the person was never truly saved. Salvation was not lost, it was never had to begin with. I am not averse to using the phrase "once saved, always saved," because once a person is saved, it is for always. Eternal security.

Phew - just some really quick thoughts this morning. I hope it makes sense...and if there is anyone out there who can explain it better, please jump in.

[*Light*]

1 hour ago, HappyChristian said:

One thing of which to be aware: most Calvinists (or those who follow reformed doctrine) are against the idea of OSAS for simply because: they do not believe in an individual's free will acceptance of Christ as Savior.  They believe that the elect must persevere in order to prove out that they are, indeed, part of the elect. And, should they "unpersevere" (stray away from the paths of righteousness), that is proof of never having been part of the elect to begin with. 

We are indeed always saved, once we are truly saved. However, there is an easy believism that has permeated Christianity that causes problems. One of those problems is false profession. Another is false security. Salvation is simple. It truly is. But it does involve repentance, which far too many people have popularized now as a "work" and therefore cannot be part of salvation. 

The fine line is that many of those who pray a prayer are trusting in that prayer, rather than the person of Christ. Assurance comes from the fact that they prayed. And as they continue in life, regardless of what they become involved in, they look back to that prayer and assure themselves (or their family assures themselves) that "once saved, always saved."

Two examples that my husband and I just discussed come to mind. We know two young men who we watched grow up...both of them made professions as children. And, boy, did they know scripture! And yet...they are both homosexual and proud of it. They are both "married" and successful. No hint of any conviction, no "doubts" that they are indeed saved, because "once saved, always saved."

Now, I know folks might say that we cannot judge the heart, so maybe they are. I'm sorry, but that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible does NOT teach that anyone will LOSE their salvation. But it DOES teach that there are false professors.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit - we have an apple tree that has been dying for a while. The fruit has not been very good at all.

This is true of people as well. We are all corrupt until we are truly saved. If we make a profession, but our fruit is corrupt, we are not saved. That does NOT mean a saved person will never sin. It DOES mean that a saved person will be convicted because he or she is indwelt by Almighty God, and God is, upon salvation, working to form us to the image of His Son. God is not going to allow His child to live in continual, habitual abomination. 

Now, let me again say that once we are saved, we are always saved. But the term has become a mantra for those who want to convince themselves that they can willfully and continually sin and be saved - and no conviction of sin, no consequence of that continual, willful sin. 

There is a balance - once we are saved, we are saved. We are still in our physical bodies, and so there will be sin. But a truly born-again believer will be convicted - and if the person doesn't respond to the conviction, spiritual spanking will follow somehow (else, the Bible says, we are not His children).  If none of the happens, the person was never truly saved. Salvation was not lost, it was never had to begin with. I am not averse to using the phrase "once saved, always saved," because once a person is saved, it is for always. Eternal security.

Phew - just some really quick thoughts this morning. I hope it makes sense...and if there is anyone out there who can explain it better, please jump in.

I knew you could explain it with clarity better than I could have. Thanks!

[Invicta]

2 hours ago, (Omega) said:

One thing of which to be aware: most Calvinists (or those who follow reformed doctrine) are against the idea of OSAS for simply because: they do not believe in an individual's free will acceptance of Christ as Savior.  They believe that the elect must persevere in order to prove out that they are, indeed, part of the elect. And, should they "unpersevere" (stray away from the paths of righteousness), that is proof of never having been part of the elect to begin with. 

Not so, they believe that God will preserve them. I would say it is the same as OSAS and Eternal security for those who truly believe.  

Trouble is, some who hold to OSAS think that if someone has answered an altar call, or made a profession, believe that they are saved without any evidence.of the new birth.  The reformed that I know will always seek evidence and not only a profession before they accept a candidate for baptism.

[*Light*]

12 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Not so, they believe that God will preserve them. I would say it is the same as OSAS and Eternal security for those who truly believe.  

Trouble is, some who hold to OSAS think that if someone has answered an altar call, or made a profession, believe that they are saved without any evidence.of the new birth.  The reformed that I know will always seek evidence and not only a profession before they accept a candidate for baptism.

You quoted the wrong person. Those are not my words, they're HappyChristian's. If you have a problem with what she said, then take it up with her.

[*Light*]

Btw, I have a problem with altar calls too. There is a church not too far from where I live called "The Abyssinian Church" that does altar calls. The Pastor would ask his congregation the question, "who would like to be saved today?". And several people would raise their hands and the Pastor would ask them to REPEAT what he says, then says, "No nobody can tell you to go to hell." This is the incorrect way to go about being saved. Paul says not only to confess with our mouths, but "BELIEVE IN OUR HEARTS" that God has raised Jesus from the dead, then we will be saved. The Pastor has NO IDEA if those who professed with their mouths actually BELIEVED in their hearts, only the one professing to do so does. 

[HappyChristian]

18 hours ago, Invicta said:

Not so, they believe that God will preserve them. I would say it is the same as OSAS and Eternal security for those who truly believe.  

Trouble is, some who hold to OSAS think that if someone has answered an altar call, or made a profession, believe that they are saved without any evidence.of the new birth.  The reformed that I know will always seek evidence and not only a profession before they accept a candidate for baptism.

It is so. "Perseverance of the saints" is a mainstay of the reformed belief. It isn't the same, because we don't persevere. Perseverance and preservation are vastly different in both definition and result, even though more modern definitions add preservation along with perseverance.  

I know of a number of churches that are not reformed that will also wait for evidence before accepting a candidate for baptism. That is something that has to be decided by the pastor of each church. Folks who lead people to a saving knowledge of the Lord need to make sure the new Christians are properly discipled so that they understand what the Bible teaches about the Christian life. 

Altar calls also vary from pastor to pastor. I've been in churches where they are a hot mess of emotionalism, and I've been in churches where they are simply invitations to come pray and allow the Holy Spirit to work.  I would agree that far too many people believe they are saved and are not...this is the problem of easy believism (but we have to be careful not to go from that side of the pendulum to the Lordship salvation side of the pendulum).

[BabeinChrist]

On December 16, 2017 at 12:06 PM, HappyChristian said:

One thing of which to be aware: most Calvinists (or those who follow reformed doctrine) are against the idea of OSAS for simply because: they do not believe in an individual's free will acceptance of Christ as Savior.  They believe that the elect must persevere in order to prove out that they are, indeed, part of the elect. And, should they "unpersevere" (stray away from the paths of righteousness), that is proof of never having been part of the elect to begin with. 

We are indeed always saved, once we are truly saved. However, there is an easy believism that has permeated Christianity that causes problems. One of those problems is false profession. Another is false security. Salvation is simple. It truly is. But it does involve repentance, which far too many people have popularized now as a "work" and therefore cannot be part of salvation. 

The fine line is that many of those who pray a prayer are trusting in that prayer, rather than the person of Christ. Assurance comes from the fact that they prayed. And as they continue in life, regardless of what they become involved in, they look back to that prayer and assure themselves (or their family assures themselves) that "once saved, always saved."

Two examples that my husband and I just discussed come to mind. We know two young men who we watched grow up...both of them made professions as children. And, boy, did they know scripture! And yet...they are both homosexual and proud of it. They are both "married" and successful. No hint of any conviction, no "doubts" that they are indeed saved, because "once saved, always saved."

Now, I know folks might say that we cannot judge the heart, so maybe they are. I'm sorry, but that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible does NOT teach that anyone will LOSE their salvation. But it DOES teach that there are false professors.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit - we have an apple tree that has been dying for a while. The fruit has not been very good at all.

This is true of people as well. We are all corrupt until we are truly saved. If we make a profession, but our fruit is corrupt, we are not saved. That does NOT mean a saved person will never sin. It DOES mean that a saved person will be convicted because he or she is indwelt by Almighty God, and God is, upon salvation, working to form us to the image of His Son. God is not going to allow His child to live in continual, habitual abomination. 

Now, let me again say that once we are saved, we are always saved. But the term has become a mantra for those who want to convince themselves that they can willfully and continually sin and be saved - and no conviction of sin, no consequence of that continual, willful sin. 

There is a balance - once we are saved, we are saved. We are still in our physical bodies, and so there will be sin. But a truly born-again believer will be convicted - and if the person doesn't respond to the conviction, spiritual spanking will follow somehow (else, the Bible says, we are not His children).  If none of the happens, the person was never truly saved. Salvation was not lost, it was never had to begin with. I am not averse to using the phrase "once saved, always saved," because once a person is saved, it is for always. Eternal security.

Phew - just some really quick thoughts this morning. I hope it makes sense...and if there is anyone out there who can explain it better, please jump in.

Thank you SO much, HappyChristian!

Yes, that makes complete sense & I totally agree with everything you said and it is all biblically sound.

Sounds like the homos just did the '123 repeat after me' nonsense. Their verbal profession meant absolutely nothing if they first did not believe on Christ in their heart, which it doesn't sound like it. Whoever gave them the Gospel didn't do a thorough job, and should have questioned & made sure that they really UNDERSTOOD AND BELIEVED the Gospel instead of allowing them to think that just saying the prayer could save them.  

At any rate, I was starting to worry because I am saved but I still struggle with an old habit: smoking cigarettes. (I know, it is a disgusting, expensive & unhealthy habit, and I am ashamed & even embarrassed to reveal that I will be 40 in a few years & still struggle with it )

I started (stupidly) as a teenager, not thinking I'd get hooked since I was young, and so of course I thought I knew everything 

But then, After getting saved and wanting to get sin out of my life, that seemed to really be the one I kept going back to. I hate it & it is frustrating, because I know it's wrong & I will manage to quit for a year or two  & then temptation strikes out of nowhere & I'll slip up, buy a pack and smoke one, feel guilty, throw the rest away and start all over again. It's a vicious cycle & sometimes it takes every ounce of willpower just to get through an hour without giving in. 

I  heard it is supposed to get easier with time, and while there is some truth in that, I have still battled it for over a decade. I pray one day that I abstain completely & never smoke again.

So, since that technically makes me a "habitual" sinner, I got confused, because my spirit testifies that I am genuinely saved.

Thank you again for your kindness, patience & clarification. :)

 

 

[HappyChristian]

(Let me add that many folks teach that OSAS is a calvinist doctrine, because of their belief in perseverance - which is tied into their idea of salvation...I said above that most are against it, not because they don't teach it, but because they must persevere or they aren't part of the elect...that isn't biblical, and actually puts the onus on the believer)

I'm glad it helped you, BabeinChrist. Sadly, sin can grab hold of us and get a stranglehold. Stay in God's Word, spend time in prayer, and continue to ask God to deliver you from this. He will. Sometimes something like this takes a  long time, sometimes it's instantaneous. My own parents smoked and knew it was wrong. They quit, and then very foolishly (my mom's word, not mine) started again (they were out of church at the time). They got things right with God, got back into church...but it was years before they were able to quit. 

Addictions are very real, and smoking is no less of one than any other.  I'll be praying for you.

[swathdiver]

The lost man delights in sin, the saved man regrets sinning.

[Gregg]

Salvation can be lost but it is not trivial.  We have it within ourselves to either reject where God leads or follow where He leads; to fall away or endure; to disobey or to obey; to love God and fellow man or to tolerate God and fellow man.  The warnings in scripture are many and clear.  When one espouses this doctrine, there is always a misunderstanding of God's sovereignty, our receiving of God's promises, or the nature of God.  Even the underlying Greek in scripture refutes the idea.  Friends in Christ, seek to remain faithful and follow where the Holy Spirit leads for He will not lead you wrong whereas man often does.  God Bless......

[DaveW]

3 hours ago, Gregg said:

Salvation can be lost but it is not trivial.  We have it within ourselves to either reject where God leads or follow where He leads; to fall away or endure; to disobey or to obey; to love God and fellow man or to tolerate God and fellow man.  The warnings in scripture are many and clear.  When one espouses this doctrine, there is always a misunderstanding of God's sovereignty, our receiving of God's promises, or the nature of God.  Even the underlying Greek in scripture refutes the idea.  Friends in Christ, seek to remain faithful and follow where the Holy Spirit leads for He will not lead you wrong whereas man often does.  God Bless......

Answer a few questions for me please: 

1. What names does God use for "Salvation life"?  (I will give you these ones) There are two main ones: Everlasting life, and Eternal life.

2. If something is everlasting, what does that mean exactly?

3. If something is eternal, what does that means exactly?

4. If something can end, was it EVER everlasting?

5. If something can end, was it EVER eternal?

 

With all the verse arguments that go on, sometimes people forget the simple facts.

God, not men, calls Salvation life both everlasting and eternal. These names can only properly be used to refer to something that was, is, and always be eternal or everlasting.

If God says something is eternal, and then it ends - for any reason whatsoever - then that makes God a liar.

If God says something is everlasting, and then it ends - for any reason whatsoever - then that makes God a liar.

 

Now remember, these are not my names for salvation life, but God's names.

So one last question: Why would God use terms that indicate that salvation life is both eternal and everlasting, if that salvation life can be lost in way for any reason? He would be lying in His use of those terms.

I know I haven't quoted any verses "Proving" you can't lose your salvation, but you all the verses I am talking about:

 

Mat 25:46
(46)  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mar 10:30
(30)  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
 

Joh 3:15
(15)  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16
(16)  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36
(36)  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 4:36
(36)  And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

Joh 5:24
(24)  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:39
(39)  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 6:27
(27)  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

I could of course go on, but you get the idea.

And of course I know this is a really simplistic argument, but if it is so simple, then it should be a breeze to answer - but no one has ever explained it away to me.

Eternal and everlasting are God's names for salvation life, and if salvation can be lost, then it is not everlasting nor eternal and NEVER WAS.