Saved in 3 tenses?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, Roselove said:

I'm having a really hard time, today. I can't stop feeling distant from God. Idk why this won't end, sometimes. I've been going through this for so long. I made another post on here awhile back. I believed God wanted me to be alone, just talking to Him and reading His word until I put all of my trust and love towards Him, alone. I was in their for most of, 6 days. I keep feeling like He wants me to do it again. I feel like He wants to purge me and if I don't endure it, I won't produce fruit and He'll pull me off like a branch. Why is it that I've been helplessly going through this for several years, but I can't even withstand being alone for a little while to resolve this? About a week ago i did it again, but i only lasted a day. I missed my husband too much. I was miserable. I really believed that God wanted me in there to build my faith in Him, I believed I'd be punished if I didn't. Can you guys pray about this and tell me what God tells you? I know that other Christians praying for someone, can really help a person. My anxiety is deep. I can't always trust my thoughts. That's why I'd like you all if you would to ask God what He wants me to do, and please let me know. I would appreciate it.

Sister Rose,

Certainly, I will commit myself to pray for you and to seek the Lord's direction.

Already, I have a thought of suggestion -- Rather than isolate yourself completely from your husband in order to be alone with God for a series of days, I would suggest that you set aside a certain number of hours each day for prayer and Bible study, then that you take an opportunity (if your husband will agree) to express unto your husband what you learned from the Lord in that alone time, as well as to pray with your husband about what you learned.

[Jim_Alaska]

Sister Rose,

It looks like the things you have outlined regarding your anxiety since before you were saved, plus the anxiety you experience  now are connected. It is important to remember that our God is a God of comfort, not of fear and confusion.  1Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 

Confusion and fear are Satan's specialty. He will use your inherent anxiety to confuse you, cause you to doubt and try to keep you in a continual state of fear. He is a master at using Scripture by twisting the meaning and trying to use it to cause doubt. We have only to look at his temptation of Jesus to see that this is a very real danger. But Jesus turned Satan's attempt to cause doubt by using Scripture in a positive sense, rather than Satan's distorted negative attempt.

We are encouraged by Scripture to do the very same thing when fear, confusion and doubt threaten to overtake us. Here is one instance showing that we can and should change our thinking patterns to affect a positive change:   Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 
 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

The last part of verse eight encourages us to think on these positive things. I think that this admonition points to using the good that we see in Scripture, as well as the good that we see in our Christian walk to fortify our minds against the confusion and fear that attempts to overcome us.

Isolating ourselves from the fight that is a part of our Christian growth is not the answer to our problems, it is more akin to hiding, unless that isolation is for the purpose of prayer and Bible study. Putting doubts, fears and confusion behind us is a fight, but a necessary one that will result in strengthening us and drawing us even closer to The Lord.   1Tim 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

There is a hymn that encourages us to do this very thing, part of it goes like this: count your many blessings, name them one by one, and it will surprise you what the Lord hath done." 

Focus your mind on the positive, suppress the negative and always remember that He has promised us peace and comfort.  John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 

I will certainly be in prayer concerning your request. may God richly bless you as you turn to Him for comfort, peace and understanding.

[Roselove]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

Certainly, I will commit myself to pray for you and to seek the Lord's direction.

Already, I have a thought of suggestion -- Rather than isolate yourself completely from your husband in order to be alone with God for a series of days, I would suggest that you set aside a certain number of hours each day for prayer and Bible study, then that you take an opportunity (if your husband will agree) to express unto your husband what you learned from the Lord in that alone time, as well as to pray with your husband about what you learned.

That is what he was thinking, too. He also suggested that he and I, do i in-depth Bible study every day. I feel that it has helped more than the isolation. I mean idk, I felt at the time that's what i was supposed to do, but I prayed that people on here and my husband would be able to help through God speaking, to them. I know I need to stay in prayer and reading God's word, I just thought that if I wasn't willing to isolate myself for as long as it took to want only Him, that I couldn't be His disciple. That worried me, a lot.

55 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Sister Rose,

It looks like the things you have outlined regarding your anxiety since before you were saved, plus the anxiety you experience  now are connected. It is important to remember that our God is a God of comfort, not of fear and confusion.  1Cor 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 

Confusion and fear are Satan's specialty. He will use your inherent anxiety to confuse you, cause you to doubt and try to keep you in a continual state of fear. He is a master at using Scripture by twisting the meaning and trying to use it to cause doubt. We have only to look at his temptation of Jesus to see that this is a very real danger. But Jesus turned Satan's attempt to cause doubt by using Scripture in a positive sense, rather than Satan's distorted negative attempt.

We are encouraged by Scripture to do the very same thing when fear, confusion and doubt threaten to overtake us. Here is one instance showing that we can and should change our thinking patterns to affect a positive change:   Php 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 
 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

The last part of verse eight encourages us to think on these positive things. I think that this admonition points to using the good that we see in Scripture, as well as the good that we see in our Christian walk to fortify our minds against the confusion and fear that attempts to overcome us.

Isolating ourselves from the fight that is a part of our Christian growth is not the answer to our problems, it is more akin to hiding, unless that isolation is for the purpose of prayer and Bible study. Putting doubts, fears and confusion behind us is a fight, but a necessary one that will result in strengthening us and drawing us even closer to The Lord.   1Tim 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

There is a hymn that encourages us to do this very thing, part of it goes like this: count your many blessings, name them one by one, and it will surprise you what the Lord hath done." 

Focus your mind on the positive, suppress the negative and always remember that He has promised us peace and comfort.  John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 

I will certainly be in prayer concerning your request. may God richly bless you as you turn to Him for comfort, peace and understanding.

The isolation was in order to pray and study, but I was scared to leave the room, I was worried that if I did, God would give up on me. I felt like He was purging me so I'd rely on Him completely. It was quite miserable, but I know that chastisement feels grievous. I'm just extremely wanting to not have to go through that, again. I'm scared that it means that I'm not fully loving God. I mean, it kinda would seem that way, if I wasn't willing to do that, right? 

I just don't want to lock myself up again for hours or days, to show my devotion. That is why I still want everyone to pray for me and tell me what God tells you. 

[Jim_Alaska]

Sister Rose, God will never give up on one of His children.  Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 

[Roselove]

I'm able to post again, I am ready to continue the conversation, when you have time! 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

9 hours ago, Roselove said:

I'm able to post again, I am ready to continue the conversation, when you have time! 

Indeed, time is the factor at the moment.  I already am formulating (in my thoughts) that next posting concerning the article.  However, I have not yet had the time to write the posting itself.  Maybe (???) by tomorrow afternoon - if nothing unplanned arises to drain the time (a pastor's life).

[Roselove]

44 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, time is the factor at the moment.  I already am formulating (in my thoughts) that next posting concerning the article.  However, I have not yet had the time to write the posting itself.  Maybe (???) by tomorrow afternoon - if nothing unplanned arises to drain the time (a pastor's life).

I understand, whenever is convenient for you! Thank you, again!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 10/6/2017 at 11:15 AM, Roselove said:

I understand, whenever is convenient for you! Thank you, again!

Sister Rose,

I do apologize.  I was unable to type up the next posting this afternoon as I had hoped to do.  Over the last two days, I have experienced an explosion of unexpected responsibilities.

[Roselove]

21 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

I do apologize.  I was unable to type up the next posting this afternoon as I had hoped to do.  Over the last two days, I have experienced an explosion of unexpected responsibilities.

It's okay, I understand! 

[Roselove]

Whenever you're able, Pastor Markle, could you also answer another question I thought about, today? It's in regards to, Matthew 7:22-23. I was thinking, how are these people doing things, I'd think only saved people could do, if they aren't saved? Doesn't God have to give them those, abilities? I don't see anywhere saying that they didn't really do those things, they said they had done.

Also, Jesus uses the word "profess", I know that Biblically, that's different from "confess", I've read when you "confess", you mean it literally and seriously. I looked up both of the words one time, and I believe they were different Greek words, too. I kind of got the feeling that Jesus was more, disowning them rather than it literally meaning, they were never His. 

I was kind of paralleling it with 1 Corinthians 13, how he could have those gifts, but unless he used them in charity, then it didn't mean anything. I thought maybe that's what happened with the people in Matthew.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Roselove

[Pastor Scott Markle]

In his first main point, the author of the article presented the following:
               (https://edgarsreflections.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/what-did-jesus-mean-by-“i-will-lose-nothing”-in-john-639/amp/)

Quote

WHO ARE THE GIVEN ONES?

The phrase “has given me” is very important in understanding the people whom Jesus would not lose. In 6:39 it’s clear that those people whom Jesus would not lose are the ones given by the Father to him. But the first question is who are these “given ones”? The common understanding is that these given ones are the true believers from all over the world. While it’s true that the given ones are believers, not all believers are “given ones.” The “given ones” in the Gospel of John always refer to the JEWISH disciples of Jesus back his time. It does not necessarily follow, as far as the Bible is concerned, that if one believes in Jesus today he is actually given by the Father to the Son. Within the context of the Gospel of John the “given ones” always refer to the disciples. They were the ones whom the Father “has given” to the Son.

The prayer of Jesus in John 17 makes this clear. In v.6 Jesus said, “I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.” Notice that in the first part of this prayer Jesus did not pray for those who will believe in him.

In v.9 we read: “I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.”

In v.12 Jesus prayed: “While I was with them (the given ones), I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.”

Right down to v.19 Jesus was praying for those whom the Father has given him: “For them (the given ones) I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.”

After praying for the “given ones” in verses 6-19, Jesus begins to pray for those who will believe in him through the message of the given ones: “My prayer is not for them (i.e., given ones) alone. I pray ALSO for THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE in me through their (i.e., given ones) message.” There is obviously a difference between the “given ones” and “those who will believe.” Therefore, again, while the “given ones” were all believers, not all “those who will believe” are “given ones.” To insist that all believers of all times are also “given ones” is a deliberate distortion of the prayer of Christ for the “given ones” (17:6-19) and for “those who will believe in him” through the message of the “given ones” (v.20) and the unity of the two (v.21).

Since we have now established who the given ones, viz., the disciples of the Lord Jesus while he was here on earth, it is correct to say that John 6:39 has no reference to other believers, especially Gentile believers like us, which therefore, refutes the reading of OSAS or or ES proponents. Some might argue that even if it refers to the disciples back then, can’t it be true about us as well that we cannot lose our salvation since they cannot lose theirs? But is it salvation that the Lord was talking about when he said, “all that He has given Me I [will] lose nothing.” Or was he talking of another kind of “losing” other than salvation?

In the first paragraph of this point, the author made two significantly firm assertions, as follows: (emboldening in the quotes was added by Pastor Scott Markle)
     (1)  "The 'given ones' in the Gospel of John always refer to the JEWISH disciples of Jesus back in his time."
     (2)  "Within the context of the Gospel of John the 'given ones' always refer to the disciples." 

Then the author of the article focused upon our Lord Jesus Christ's prayer in John 17 in order to support his assertions.   I myself have three points of conflict with this presentation:

In the first place --

In order to define the phrase, "all that the Father giveth me," in John 6:37, the author of the article focused completely upon John 17.  Yet he did not focus upon the immediate context of John 6:35-65 at all.  However, it would seem to me that the FIRST place which we should consider in order to define a phrase is the immediate context itself, if there is anything therein to aid our understanding.  So then, is there anything in the immediate context of John 6:35-65 to aid us in understanding the meaning for the opening phrase of John 6:37 -- "All that the Father giveth me"? 

With this phrase of John 6:37 our Lord Jesus Christ spoke concerning the relationship of God the Father toward those who will come unto the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as Savior.  In two other verses of the immediate context, our Lord Jesus Christ also spoke concerning this relationship.  These two verses are John 6:44-45, wherein our Lord Jesus Christ declared, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." 

Through each of these three verses individually (John 6:37, John 6:44, and John 6:45), we are taught a sequence of events that lead unto an individual's coming unto Christ.

Through John 6:37 we learn:
     1.  God the Father gives certain individuals unto God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
     2.  All whom God the Father gives unto God the Son do indeed come unto God the Son.
     3.  God the Son will in no wise cast out any who come unto Him.

Through John 6:44 we learn:
     1.  God the Father must draw an individual unto God the Son in order for an individual to have the ability to come unto the Son.
     2.  God the Son will raise up at the last day any who who come unto Him.

Through John 6:45 we learn:
     1.  God the Father engages in a work of teaching unto all, in order to teach them of their need for God the Son as Savior.
     2.  Some individuals listen unto and learn from God the Father's teaching concerning God the Son as Savior.
     3.  Every individual who listens unto and learns from God the Father's teaching does indeed come unto God the Son.

Now, when we bring the teaching of these three individual verses together, we may come to a better contextual understanding concerning God the Father's work in relation to those who come unto the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as Savior.  First, we recognize that John 6:45 is provided as an explanation for John 6:44; therefore, John 6:45 reveals how and whom God the Father draws unto God the Son.  Indeed, God the Father draws through engaging in a work of teaching; and God the Father engages in this drawing work of teaching upon ALL individuals.  Yet all do NOT come unto God the Son through faith.  Rather, only those individuals who listen unto and learn from God the Father's drawing work of teaching actually come unto God the Son.  On the other hand, EVERY SINGLE ONE who listens unto and learns from God the Father's drawing work of teaching DO INDEED come unto God the Son.  As such, these individuals would be equivalent unto those whom God the Father GIVES unto God the Son; for ALL whom God the Father gives unto God the Son DO INDEED come unto God the Son.  Even so, we now can compile the sequence from all three verses, as follows:

     1.  God the Father draws all individuals unto God the Son through a work of teaching to teach them of their need for the Son.
     2.  Some individuals listen unto and learn from God the Father's teaching concerning God the Son as Savior.
     3.  God the Father gives unto God the Son every individual (all) who listens unto and learns from His drawing work of teaching.
     4.  All whom God the Father gives unto God the Son, because they listened unto and learned from His drawing work of teaching, DO INDEED come unto the God the Son through faith as Savior.

Through this contextual study, we are able to discern a contextual definition for those whom God the Father gives unto God the Son (the "given ones").  The "given ones" are those who respond unto God the Father's drawing work of teaching by listening unto it and learning from it.  Now, if John 6:37 applies only unto Jewish believers during the time of our Lord's earthly ministry, then in the context John 6:44-45 must also apply ONLY unto them.  However, if John 6:44-45 applies unto both Jews and Gentiles both during the time of our Lord's earthly ministry and today, then John 6:37 also applies unto both groups in both times.
 

In the second place --

The primary argument that the author of the article sought to make in his first main point is that within the context of the Gospel of John the "given ones" by God the Father ALWAYS refer unto the Jewish disciples of Jesus back in the time of His early ministry, and unto none others.  Now, it would seem to me that if the author of the article desired to demonstrate this "always" assertion for the context of the Gospel of John, he would then make reference unto EVERY time wherein the "given ones" by God the Father are referenced throughout the Gospel of John.  Yet the author of the article did NOT do this.  There are actually three passages wherein these "given ones" by God the Father are referenced.  The first of these passages is John 6:37, which is the passage under question.  The third of these passages is John 17:6, 9, 11-12, upon which the author of the article placed a significant amount of focus.  However, the second of these passages is John 10:29, unto which the author of the article made no reference whatsoever at all.  So then, let us consider this passage that the author of the article completely neglected.

In John 10:27-30 our Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.  I and my Father are one." (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)  So then, who all are included among God the Son's sheep according to the context of John 10:1-30, these sheep whom God the Father gave unto God the Son?  The answer is found through two important verses within the context.  First, in John 10:9 our Lord Jesus Christ declared, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."  So then, God the Son's sheep are those who enter through Him as the Door of Salvation, and who are thereby saved.  Second, in John 10:16 our Lord Jesus Christ declared, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."  Within this context, the fold that our Lord described as "this fold" would have been the Jewish "fold."  Furthermore, those whom the Lord described as the "other sheep" would be from the Gentile "fold."  Yet our Lord indicated with the conclusion of John 10:16 that all of those sheep who would become His by entering through Him unto salvation, both from the Jewish "fold" and the Gentile "fold," would become ONE fold of saved sheep with ONE Shepherd, God the Son Himself.  Even so, within this context God the Son's sheep, as referenced in John 10:27-30, would include ALL who enter in and are saved by God the Son through faith, not just the Jewish disciples during the time of our Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry.  So then, we learn that the author of the article is simply not accurate when he asserts that within the context of the Gospel of John the "given ones" by God the Father ALWAYS refer unto the Jewish disciples of Jesus back in the time of His early ministry, and unto none others.  Furthermore, we also may take notice that John 10:27-30 also teaches eternal security through the authority and power of God unto all of God the Son's sheep, that is -- unto all of the "given ones" by God the Father.
 

In the third place --

The author of the article supported his assertion for his first main point by placing a significant focus upon the passage of John 17:6, 9, 11-12.  First, the author of the article asserted, "Within the context of the Gospel of John the 'given ones' always refer to the disciples.  They were the ones whom the Father 'has given' to the Son."  Then the author of the article stated his evidence, "The prayer of Jesus in John 17 makes this clear." 

Now, it is certainly accurate that in John 17:6-19 our Lord Jesus Christ was speaking specifically concerning the eleven apostles (with Judas Iscariot being excluded by our Lord's specific statement in John 17:12).  However, in this regard the author of the article presented an inconsistent progression within the context of his own position and argument.  First, he stated, "The 'given ones' in the Gospel of John always refer to the JEWISH disciples of Jesus back his time." (emphasis included in the original quote)  This statement the author of the article drew from the reference unto physical sight in John 6:36.  Thus he indicated that the "given ones" encompass all of the Jewish believers-disciples during our Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, since they were the only ones who physically saw Him.  Yet then the author of the article stated, "Within the context of the Gospel of John the 'given ones' always refer to the disciples.  They were the ones whom the Father 'has given' to the Son," which the author of the article supported from John 17:6-19.  Yet John 17:6-19 does not refer unto all of the Jewish believers-disciples during our Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, but only refers unto the eleven apostles alone.  So then, we are compelled to ask -- Which is it; do the "given ones" by God the Father encompass all of the believers-disciples during our Lord's earthly ministry, or do the "given ones" by God the Father encompass only the eleven apostles?

Furthermore, we should recognize that the context of John 17:6-19 is grammatically more narrow than that of the other passages.  The first reference that our Lord Jesus Christ made unto the "given ones" within His prayer of John 17 is found in John 17:6.  Yet in this verse our Lord Jesus Christ did not make reference generally unto those whom God the Father had given unto Him.  Rather, in this verse our Lord Jesus Christ made reference specifically unto a group of MEN whom God the Father had given unto Him.  Therein our Lord said, "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)  As such, throughout the prayer of John 17, our Lord Jesus Christ was not necessarily speaking about all of the individuals whom God the Father had given unto Him, but was very specifically speaking about a specific group of men whom God the Father had given unto Him.  Yet in the context of John 6:37, our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT communicate that He was narrowing the "given ones" by God the Father only unto a specific group of MEN.  Rather, in John 6:37 our Lord Jesus Christ spoke more generally concerning those whom God the Father had given unto Him, even as He spoke more generally in John 10:27-30.  Thus when we seek for a Biblical comparison for John 6:37, we find that the context of John 10:1-30 serves as a far better comparison than does the context of John 17:6-19.

(Note: The quotation of John 17:6 by the author of the article does not include this specific reference unto "the men."  Rather, his quotation of the the verse reads as follows, "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word." (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)  The reason for this is because the author of the article was not quoting from the King James translation, but from some other translation.  Yet the Greek word "ἀνθρώποις" ("anthropois"), which is the plural of the Greek word meaning "man," is very specifically found in the Greek text of John 17:6.  Indeed, this Greek word is specifically found in the Received Text, as well as in the Westcott-Hort text and in the Nestle-Aland (27th ed.) text.  As such, the quotation that the author of the article employed simply came from a looser translation of the verse than that which is found in the King James translation.  In addition, that looseness in translation allowed for a distortion in the understanding of John 17:6.)

However, the author of the article presented two more main points in his argument.  Therefore, there is yet more for us to consider.

Sister Rose, are you following this information thus far; or do you have any questions about this information?

[Jim_Alaska]

An excellent critique of this work Bro. Scott. You are spot on in asking, "which is it"? That author can't have it both ways just to suit his whims.

[Alan]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

The reason for this is because the author of the article was not quoting from the King James translation, but from some other translation.  Yet the Greek word "ἀνθρώποις" ("anthropois"), which is the plural of the Greek word meaning "man," is very specifically found in the Greek text of John 17:6.  Indeed, this Greek word is specifically found in the Received Text, as well as in the Westcott-Hort text and in the Nestle-Aland (27th ed.) text.  As such, the quotation that the author of the article employed simply came from a looser translation of the verse than that which is found in the King James translation.  In addition, that looseness in translation allowed for a distortion in the understanding of John 17:6.)

Thank you for your in-depth study and analysis on the whole article; particularly on the author's usage of a corrupt manuscript, and a distortion of the Greek language,  in order to promote a false teaching. Is it no wonder that some of God's saints are confused when they study under these false teachers?

 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Alan
grammer

[Roselove]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

In his first main point, the author of the article presented the following:
               (https://edgarsreflections.wordpress.com/2011/01/03/what-did-jesus-mean-by-“i-will-lose-nothing”-in-john-639/amp/)

In the first paragraph of this point, the author made two significantly firm assertions, as follows: (emboldening in the quotes was added by Pastor Scott Markle)
     (1)  "The 'given ones' in the Gospel of John always refer to the JEWISH disciples of Jesus back in his time."
     (2)  "Within the context of the Gospel of John the 'given ones' always refer to the disciples." 

Then the author of the article focused upon our Lord Jesus Christ's prayer in John 17 in order to support his assertions.   I myself have three points of conflict with this presentation:

In the first place --

In order to define the phrase, "all that the Father giveth me," in John 6:37, the author of the article focused completely upon John 17.  Yet he did not focus upon the immediate context of John 6:35-65 at all.  However, it would seem to me that the FIRST place which we should consider in order to define a phrase is the immediate context itself, if there is anything therein to aid our understanding.  So then, is there anything in the immediate context of John 6:35-65 to aid us in understanding the meaning for the opening phrase of John 6:37 -- "All that the Father giveth me"? 

With this phrase of John 6:37 our Lord Jesus Christ spoke concerning the relationship of God the Father toward those who will come unto the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as Savior.  In two other verses of the immediate context, our Lord Jesus Christ also spoke concerning this relationship.  These two verses are John 6:44-45, wherein our Lord Jesus Christ declared, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.  It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.  Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." 

Through each of these three verses individually (John 6:37, John 6:44, and John 6:45), we are taught a sequence of events that lead unto an individual's coming unto Christ.

Through John 6:37 we learn:
     1.  God the Father gives certain individuals unto God the Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
     2.  All whom God the Father gives unto God the Son do indeed come unto God the Son.
     3.  God the Son will in no wise cast out any who come unto Him.

Through John 6:44 we learn:
     1.  God the Father must draw an individual unto God the Son in order for an individual to have the ability to come unto the Son.
     2.  God the Son will raise up at the last day any who who come unto Him.

Through John 6:45 we learn:
     1.  God the Father engages in a work of teaching unto all, in order to teach them of their need for God the Son as Savior.
     2.  Some individuals listen unto and learn from God the Father's teaching concerning God the Son as Savior.
     3.  Every individual who listens unto and learns from God the Father's teaching does indeed come unto God the Son.

Now, when we bring the teaching of these three individual verses together, we may come to a better contextual understanding concerning God the Father's work in relation to those who come unto the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as Savior.  First, we recognize that John 6:45 is provided as an explanation for John 6:44; therefore, John 6:45 reveals how and whom God the Father draws unto God the Son.  Indeed, God the Father draws through engaging in a work of teaching; and God the Father engages in this drawing work of teaching upon ALL individuals.  Yet all do NOT come unto God the Son through faith.  Rather, only those individuals who listen unto and learn from God the Father's drawing work of teaching actually come unto God the Son.  On the other hand, EVERY SINGLE ONE who listens unto and learns from God the Father's drawing work of teaching DO INDEED come unto God the Son.  As such, these individuals would be equivalent unto those whom God the Father GIVES unto God the Son; for ALL whom God the Father gives unto God the Son DO INDEED come unto God the Son.  Even so, we now can compile the sequence from all three verses, as follows:

     1.  God the Father draws all individuals unto God the Son through a work of teaching to teach them of their need for the Son.
     2.  Some individuals listen unto and learn from God the Father's teaching concerning God the Son as Savior.
     3.  God the Father gives unto God the Son every individual (all) who listens unto and learns from His drawing work of teaching.
     4.  All whom God the Father gives unto God the Son, because they listened unto and learned from His drawing work of teaching, DO INDEED come unto the God the Son through faith as Savior.

Through this contextual study, we are able to discern a contextual definition for those whom God the Father gives unto God the Son (the "given ones").  The "given ones" are those who respond unto God the Father's drawing work of teaching by listening unto it and learning from it.  Now, if John 6:37 applies only unto Jewish believers during the time of our Lord's earthly ministry, then in the context John 6:44-45 must also apply ONLY unto them.  However, if John 6:44-45 applies unto both Jews and Gentiles both during the time of our Lord's earthly ministry and today, then John 6:37 also applies unto both groups in both times.
 

In the second place --

The primary argument that the author of the article sought to make in his first main point is that within the context of the Gospel of John the "given ones" by God the Father ALWAYS refer unto the Jewish disciples of Jesus back in the time of His early ministry, and unto none others.  Now, it would seem to me that if the author of the article desired to demonstrate this "always" assertion for the context of the Gospel of John, he would then make reference unto EVERY time wherein the "given ones" by God the Father are referenced throughout the Gospel of John.  Yet the author of the article did NOT do this.  There are actually three passages wherein these "given ones" by God the Father are referenced.  The first of these passages is John 6:37, which is the passage under question.  The third of these passages is John 17:6, 9, 11-12, upon which the author of the article placed a significant amount of focus.  However, the second of these passages is John 10:29, unto which the author of the article made no reference whatsoever at all.  So then, let us consider this passage that the author of the article completely neglected.

In John 10:27-30 our Lord Jesus Christ proclaimed, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.  I and my Father are one." (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)  So then, who all are included among God the Son's sheep according to the context of John 10:1-30, these sheep whom God the Father gave unto God the Son?  The answer is found through two important verses within the context.  First, in John 10:9 our Lord Jesus Christ declared, "I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture."  So then, God the Son's sheep are those who enter through Him as the Door of Salvation, and who are thereby saved.  Second, in John 10:16 our Lord Jesus Christ declared, "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."  Within this context, the fold that our Lord described as "this fold" would have been the Jewish "fold."  Furthermore, those whom the Lord described as the "other sheep" would be from the Gentile "fold."  Yet our Lord indicated with the conclusion of John 10:16 that all of those sheep who would become His by entering through Him unto salvation, both from the Jewish "fold" and the Gentile "fold," would become ONE fold of saved sheep with ONE Shepherd, God the Son Himself.  Even so, within this context God the Son's sheep, as referenced in John 10:27-30, would include ALL who enter in and are saved by God the Son through faith, not just the Jewish disciples during the time of our Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry.  So then, we learn that the author of the article is simply not accurate when he asserts that within the context of the Gospel of John the "given ones" by God the Father ALWAYS refer unto the Jewish disciples of Jesus back in the time of His early ministry, and unto none others.  Furthermore, we also may take notice that John 10:27-30 also teaches eternal security through the authority and power of God unto all of God the Son's sheep, that is -- unto all of the "given ones" by God the Father.
 

In the third place --

The author of the article supported his assertion for his first main point by placing a significant focus upon the passage of John 17:6, 9, 11-12.  First, the author of the article asserted, "Within the context of the Gospel of John the 'given ones' always refer to the disciples.  They were the ones whom the Father 'has given' to the Son."  Then the author of the article stated his evidence, "The prayer of Jesus in John 17 makes this clear." 

Now, it is certainly accurate that in John 17:6-19 our Lord Jesus Christ was speaking specifically concerning the eleven apostles (with Judas Iscariot being excluded by our Lord's specific statement in John 17:12).  However, in this regard the author of the article presented an inconsistent progression within the context of his own position and argument.  First, he stated, "The 'given ones' in the Gospel of John always refer to the JEWISH disciples of Jesus back his time." (emphasis included in the original quote)  This statement the author of the article drew from the reference unto physical sight in John 6:36.  Thus he indicated that the "given ones" encompass all of the Jewish believers-disciples during our Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, since they were the only ones who physically saw Him.  Yet then the author of the article stated, "Within the context of the Gospel of John the 'given ones' always refer to the disciples.  They were the ones whom the Father 'has given' to the Son," which the author of the article supported from John 17:6-19.  Yet John 17:6-19 does not refer unto all of the Jewish believers-disciples during our Lord Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, but only refers unto the eleven apostles alone.  So then, we are compelled to ask -- Which is it; do the "given ones" by God the Father encompass all of the believers-disciples during our Lord's earthly ministry, or do the "given ones" by God the Father encompass only the eleven apostles?

Furthermore, we should recognize that the context of John 17:6-19 is grammatically more narrow than that of the other passages.  The first reference that our Lord Jesus Christ made unto the "given ones" within His prayer of John 17 is found in John 17:6.  Yet in this verse our Lord Jesus Christ did not make reference generally unto those whom God the Father had given unto Him.  Rather, in this verse our Lord Jesus Christ made reference specifically unto a group of MEN whom God the Father had given unto Him.  Therein our Lord said, "I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word." (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)  As such, throughout the prayer of John 17, our Lord Jesus Christ was not necessarily speaking about all of the individuals whom God the Father had given unto Him, but was very specifically speaking about a specific group of men whom God the Father had given unto Him.  Yet in the context of John 6:37, our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT communicate that He was narrowing the "given ones" by God the Father only unto a specific group of MEN.  Rather, in John 6:37 our Lord Jesus Christ spoke more generally concerning those whom God the Father had given unto Him, even as He spoke more generally in John 10:27-30.  Thus when we seek for a Biblical comparison for John 6:37, we find that the context of John 10:1-30 serves as a far better comparison than does the context of John 17:6-19.

(Note: The quotation of John 17:6 by the author of the article does not include this specific reference unto "the men."  Rather, his quotation of the the verse reads as follows, "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word." (emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)  The reason for this is because the author of the article was not quoting from the King James translation, but from some other translation.  Yet the Greek word "ἀνθρώποις" ("anthropois"), which is the plural of the Greek word meaning "man," is very specifically found in the Greek text of John 17:6.  Indeed, this Greek word is specifically found in the Received Text, as well as in the Westcott-Hort text and in the Nestle-Aland (27th ed.) text.  As such, the quotation that the author of the article employed simply came from a looser translation of the verse than that which is found in the King James translation.  In addition, that looseness in translation allowed for a distortion in the understanding of John 17:6.)

However, the author of the article presented two more main points in his argument.  Therefore, there is yet more for us to consider.

Sister Rose, are you following this information thus far; or do you have any questions about this information?

Thank you for this explanation, it makes much more sense to me, now. I see that, the article writer was inconsistent and biased, it appears. Thank you for clearing up the confusion that I had from his, page!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

On 10/8/2017 at 6:27 PM, Roselove said:

Whenever you're able, Pastor Markle, could you also answer another question I thought about, today? It's in regards to, Matthew 7:22-23. I was thinking, how are these people doing things, I'd think only saved people could do, if they aren't saved? Doesn't God have to give them those, abilities? I don't see anywhere saying that they didn't really do those things, they said they had done.

Also, Jesus uses the word "profess", I know that Biblically, that's different from "confess", I've read when you "confess", you mean it literally and seriously. I looked up both of the words one time, and I believe they were different Greek words, too. I kind of got the feeling that Jesus was more, disowning them rather than it literally meaning, they were never His. 

I was kind of paralleling it with 1 Corinthians 13, how he could have those gifts, but unless he used them in charity, then it didn't mean anything. I thought maybe that's what happened with the people in Matthew.

Sister Rose, 

Concerning Matthew 7:21-23 –

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name?  And in thy name have cast out devils?  And in thy name done many wonderful works?  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

In order to correctly understand our Lord’s teaching in Matthew 7:21-23, I believe that we must understand two important elements of this teaching.

1.  First, we must understand the judgement that our Lord pronounces against the given group of this context.  It is not significantly important whether our Lord professed His judgment, or confessed His judgment.  Rather, it is much more important to understand the actual judgment that He expressed.  Even so, this judgment includes three parts: 

(1)  The Confrontation – “I never knew you”
(2)  The Condemnation – “Depart from me”
(3)  The Classification – “Ye that work iniquity”

The key to understanding our Lord’s judgment is bound up in the word “never.”  Herein the Greek word that is translated “never” means just that – “never, not ever at all whatsoever.”  As such, our Lord indicated that He never at all whatsoever knew these individuals as His own people.  It is not that these individuals possessed eternal salvation at one time, and then somehow lost their salvation.  Rather, it is that they NEVER possessed eternal salvation at any time whatsoever at all.  It is not that these individuals were the children of God at one time, and then somehow ceased to be the children of God.  Rather, it is that they NEVER were the children at any time whatsoever at all.  For this very reason the Lord condemned them to depart from Him, such that they could not enter into the kingdom of heaven, but were cast out into the eternal judgment of hell.  Indeed, for this very reason the Lord classified them as those who worked sinful iniquity.  They may have classified their works as good works, but the Lord classified their works as iniquity and classified them themselves as the workers of iniquity.  In no manner whatsoever did the Lord classify them or their works as acceptable in His sight.  Indeed, according to Proverbs 21:4, our Lord views even the plowing of the unsaved wicked as sinful iniquity in His sight.

2.  Second, we must understand the argument that the given group of this context presented unto the Lord.  Now, let us take note that this context is specifically about who will or will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Furthermore, let us take note that this context is about those who follow a Biblically based religion; for only such would say, “Lord, Lord,” unto the Lord Jesus Christ.  Finally, let us take note that this context is about judgment day and about the determination by which individuals shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.  Contextually then, the religious individuals of this context present the power of their good works as the foundational evidence by which they should be permitted entrance into the kingdom of heaven.  Yet does God’s Holy Word teach us that good works are the true foundation by which individuals may enter into the kingdom of heaven?  No, it does NOT.  Rather, God’s Holy Word teaches us that the true foundation by which we sinners shall enter into the kingdom of heaven is in being born again and eternally saved by God’s grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.  These individuals were not trusting in Christ, but in their own good, religious, powerful works.  Thus they were NEVER known by the Lord as His own people.  Yet the Lord did not at all deny their performance of these good, religious works; nor did the Lord deny that they employed His very name in the performance of their works.  Indeed, they had performed these works and had claimed the name of the Lord while performing them.  Yet their works in the Lord’s name did not matter.  They were NEVER known by the Lord as His own people because they had NEVER placed their trust wholly and only in Him as Savior.  So then, from where did they acquire the power to perform their supernatural works?  Since they did not receive that power from the Lord, they could only have received it from the Lord’s great adversary, the devil.

Sister Rose, I pray that this answer was of help in answering your questions.  If not, please ask any further question that you might concerning the matter.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Pastor Scott Markle