Requirements for Pastors

[Salyan]

This is an offshoot of the thread on Looking for a Local Church. I wanted to respond to the comment on pastors/children without taking that thread off-topic.

35 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

Consider this.  A NT church plants another in a nearby town.  However, the pastor they chose has only one child.  After several years the pastor has multiple children.  So when the new church was planted it did not have a qualified pastor but in time he became qualified and the church is now scriptural.

I disagree with the view that a pastor must have more than one child to be legitimate. He could have no children at all and be legitimate. I believe the passage is speaking more to a leader's need to correctly train and lead whatever family God may give him. To make it say anything else puts a burden on people that they have no control over (what if there are medical reasons preventing children? or children die?).

[HappyChristian]

Exactly, Salyan.

The word used for children in both passages listing the qualifications has the meaning of both singular and plural.

If, in fact, it is required that there be more than one child, then in a family with only one child, that child would not have to obey the admonition "Children, obey your parents."  I know, that sounds silly. But that is the logical end of the thought. And 1 Cor 7:14 would only apply to people with more than one child. Etc., etc.

When God calls a man, that man can disqualify himself. But God is the giver of children, and if He chooses to only give that man one child (or none), He would be a capricious God should He require multiple children for a man to qualify as pastor and then not give them to him.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Put another way: the wife has 2 miscarriages and a child that dies @ 2 months old. They have no living children and she is no longer able to conceive. Can he pastor? They have 3 children but none are in the home. (I personally know a similar case -- just a couple of particulars changed). What if the 2 children each die before adulthood, before puberty, before weaning? Not being belligerent, looking for serious response (remember, not all pastors are in the US, Canada, UK or Australia and not all pastors in other countries are American).

[Invicta]

What is a NT church? The Brethren claimed to be this when they began in Ireland when they read that believers met from house to house breaking bread.  They soon moved from that to being exclusive, only those who agreed with them when only those who agreed with them,  were allowed o break bread.

nioned

 

 

 

[swathdiver]

"One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;" - 1 Timothy 3:4

"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." - 1 Timothy 3:12

"If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly." - Titus 1:6

 

Edited August 12, 2017 by swathdiver

[Salyan]

41 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

"One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;" - 1 Timothy 3:4

"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." - 1 Timothy 3:12

"If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly." - Titus 1:5

 

The Greek word for 'children' in those passages is teknon. In Matthew 21:28, teknon is translated both 'sons' (plural) and 'son' (singular). When Jesus was talking to the man sick of the palsy in Matthew 9:2, He called him 'son' (teknon).  Your argument creates an unsustainable doctrine out of translational semantics.

Revelation 12:5 speaks of the child of the woman, Who should rule all nations with a rod of iron, as a teknon. By the above reasoning, Jesus, rather than being the Only Begotten Son, King of Kings & Lord of Lords, would be one of a multitude of rulers/gods.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

56 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

ss"One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;" - 1 Timothy 3:4

"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." - 1 Timothy 3:12

"If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly." - Titus 1:5

 

Yep, my question though was how long do the children have to live to fulfill the above. If he begins the pastorate when his kids are 2 months and 3 years of age and they die in the car wreck that leaves his surviving wife unable to conceive 14 months into his pastorate ------ must he resign?

Or, if he pastors in Myanmar and the kids die in the RPG attack on the church?

Or, does Mainland China not have any Biblical churches or pastors due the one child law that was in effect for half a century?

[Invicta]

11 hours ago, Salyan said:

Consider this.  A NT church plants another in a nearby town.  However, the pastor they chose has only one child.  After several years the pastor has multiple children.  So when the new church was planted it did not have a qualified pastor but in time he became qualified and the church is now scriptural.

So according to your interpretation if a pastor has two children and one or both die, he is disqualified from being a pastor?

[Salyan]

31 minutes ago, Invicta said:

So according to your interpretation if a pastor has two children and one or both die, he is disqualified from being a pastor?

Check your quotes. Swathdiver said that, not me. I'm disagreeing with it. 

[HappyChristian]

The verses on children are not a mandate to have children, but, rather, a mandate to make sure those children (whether one or 100) under the pastor's roof are also under his control.  To try and force into the qualifications passages the demand for having multiple children is crafting a tradition of man rather than just obeying the Word.

And then comes OFP's point - if a pastor has children and some or all of them die, is he then disqualified? That's the trouble with traditions of men. Not only do they not hold up scripturally, they don't hold up logically.

[Invicta]

15 hours ago, Salyan said:

Check your quotes. Swathdiver said that, not me. I'm disagreeing with it. 

Sorry Salyan I don't know how that happened, I thought I was relying to Swathdiver

[HappyChristian]

36 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Sorry Salyan I don't know how that happened, I thought I was relying to Swathdiver

It seems to be an occasional glitch, Invicta. Frustrating but not fatal.

[swathdiver]

" A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;" - 1 Timothy 3:2-4

 

"Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well." - 1 Timothy 3:12

 

"If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly." - Titus 1:6

 

         As for me and my house, the King James Bible is sufficient for all matters of faith and practice and do not have to rely upon the Greek for correctly understanding the scriptures.  God preserved his Word in the King James and it is perfect and inerrant.  Having said that, let’s dig in, shall we?

 

         Under the rules of grammar regarding 1 Timothy 3:2-4, we must examine the entire sentence to gain context.   This means “a bishop then must be” applies to each requirement (grammatically a predicate adjective) in the sentence.  These include: blameless, husband, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given, apt, given, striker, greedy, patient, brawler, covetous, one, and having.  A bishop then must be having his children in subjection…  Children is the plural form of child.  Child is singular, meaning one.  Plural means two or more.  The bishop must have children.

 

         Now let’s address 1 Timothy 3:12. “Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife” means each deacon be a husband of one wife.  “Ruling their children” means each deacon must rule his children.  The word “their” could be either singular or plural and pertains to all of the deacons in ruling their own children.  This verse could be taken either way, children in the general sense.

 

         For Titus 1:6, “If any be” is akin to anyone, any one man and again lists the predicate adjectives/requirements which include blameless, husband and having.  This plainly states that a requirement for ordaining elders is for the elder to have one wife and children.  Children is again here plural else the translators would have written one child like they wrote one wife.

 

         In the context of verses 18 through 22 in Colossians 3, we can understand that Paul was speaking to ALL wives, ALL husbands, ALL children, ALL fathers, and ALL servants, each being in the plural.

 

         1 Corinthians 7:14 speaks of children in a general sense as we speak of the church elsewhere in the scriptures.  Sometimes it means many churches other times a specific church and so on.

 

          As for the situations where children die at varying times, well, these 3 sentences and five verses use children in the present and it would then seem to me that if a man was called to preach he would always have more than two living children during his ministry as pastor.  What about adult living children that die?  I don’t know and haven’t prayed for wisdom on such.

 

          Some have not carefully chosen their words for they are contradictory.  They are making the scriptures say something because of their beliefs.  We need to all, myself included, take the scriptures literally and not read into them lest we make them say something that isn’t so.

 

         In summary, the scriptures show that a pastor must have more than one child, children, that are in subjection and are not accused of riot or unruly.  This teaches us that the pastor’s children must be of age to understand subjection and good behavior.  Remember, he’s not to be a novice either.

 

         Many thanks to my daughter, Julia, for helping Dad diagram sentences.  I know what I know through prayer and study but she helped show me the mechanics of it so I, we, could shed more light on the subject with you all.

Edited August 12, 2017 by swathdiver
To Correct Formatting Losses

[OLD fashioned preacher]

So, in other words, Mainland China has not had anyone qualified as a pastor in over half a century. Therefore, they have not had a Scriptural N.T. church in over half a century.

Thank you for your answer, if this is not consistent with your answer feel free to explain why not.

[swathdiver]

I'm aware of the communist China's one child policy.  I'm also aware that many of her people have successfully ignored it.  I have never been to China and thus cannot comment on the state of New Testament Churches in that country.  This is akin to saying "Yeah, But..."  The bible says what it says and I'm not going to try to make it say something it doesn't.  Maybe there are more verses that shed light on this subject? 

Edited August 12, 2017 by swathdiver