Independent Baptist missionaries and not only living like kings in Eastern Europe

[LexUS]

            Independent Baptist
     missionaries and not only  living  like kings in Eastern Europe

I worked from early 2000s for missionaries in my country and I got saved through their work, back then when people did not have much, did not want much. I was raised in a Bible environment but in my country all the born again christians don't believe in assurance of salvation and the standards are low. I never had a high standard myself and I admit I am not perfect but who is it ? I was appreciated for my honesty and hard work and that's why I was hired as translator and many other things to help this man or that man. I write this out of anger and it might hurt people financially but I do not hide the fact that maybe this way is better. You see, people that read this, and you, that give to missions back home in USA, think and see the missionaries like great people and what a sacrifice they do, therefore all the money you give is well worth it for people's soul sake. Maybe this was true in the 2000s and early 90'. People are as hard as rock in the Eastern Europe, they don't care if you have the truth, they'll still see you a mormon or a JW. The missionaries in my country that you pay, have between 4000 and 8000 $ income. You don't make that in USA easy do you? When they exchange that amount in local currency, they get maybe 25000 local money. That, for me is your 25000$ a month! How can a born again christian pretend he sacrifices his life when he has a villa, 2-3 cars, his kids are hired after 18 because they can't legally work here and they wanna keep a grasp on them, if they go back to USA most of them backslide, especially the boys. We here have very small crime and drug problem. People in my country live on a very low pay, 250 to 400 $ a month. Your missionaries go to KFC and Cinema City, while you think back home it's a sin to go to see a movie. They hide it from you. They have cable and internet, cable that comes often with mandatory porn channels. Go figure, holy thou art ! If you tell a missionary that he has a lot of money, he will say to you that he gave up all for Christ and all his toys and jobs and he could make even more money in USA. Yeah, maybe, but here you just sit and do nothing for that money. Because the field is closed, people don't care and don't respond to the Gospel. All they want from a missionary is his money and help. He goes to a village, gives some food in bags, and a Bible takes pics and sends it to your church, and you are amazed with the work he has done ! Where is the verse acting in a missionary life, when ap. Paul said that he became greek to the greeks and so on ? How can he be one of my kind when he has 6000$ a month and I have 400 $ ?! Is his stomach 60 kg and mine is 4kg ? Are my children allergic to KFC ? All the youth that comes to an Independent Baptist church come just for the food and social games. When they see that there are no men or women to marry or they are criticized often for their low standards, they leave ! Happily ! Trust me, I know tens of teens that did that ! While back home, you are mentally harassed to give give give. One friend, american missionary told me he has no respect for the one who does not give. Well I have no respect for him, because he chops your money. You may say I do so too since I was paid by them. Well, I worked for it and the junk I had to take from them is awful ! In the past, when they came, missionaries had high standards and they will not allow you in their house to even say Oh my Word. But today, them and their kids, watch Discovery and HBO with all the cursing possible. I understand that most churches in States became calvinistic, dropped standards too. If so, you too are a two-faced movement. Shame on you ! Shame on you for coming into my country and making a show and for teaching us things,things that yourself do not do anymore ! What a testimony ! Eastern Europe is closed, send your missionaries to Congo ! Leave the Europeans to their own fall, sadly, let them be. Don't send missionaries to a field with no more crops and please make sure what you send and what money you send, please check them up, send trustworthy members to check them up at least every 6 months, don't let them come home every 2 years. They complain anyway, that they miss their relatives and the food ( that tells me what sacrifice they bear ? ). All I wrote here is out of anger and I admit it, it's meant to hurt them, some may think it hurt God's ministry but I think it will do a good for all of us. Re-think your board strategy and be more flexible, don't drop standards but also don't shove them on the native's throats ! They need salvation not sanctification and judgement ! Leave that to God !
Thank you! 

Edited November 7, 2016 by LexUS

[Jim_Alaska]

A post like this casts a dark pall over all mission work. It is a poor choice of subjects when a new member makes a post like this as his first, introductory post. This person seems to have an ax to grind and exhibits no Christian qualities that I can see. His anger is freely expressed and we only get to hear one side of the story.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, which I hesitate to do, he may have legitimate, or semi-legitimate complaints based on his experience with possibly one or two missionaries. But to read his post it would seem that he indicts all missionaries with his claims that they are charlatans.

Based on my experience with Independent Baptist missionaries, I find his rant hard to believe. My first inclination was to delete this post because of its hateful nature and the fact that it comes very close to board rules that state; "Bashing of your pastor or church is not allowed".I may do that yet, but for now choose to leave it as is and let other members and mods make their own determinations on if this sort of thing should even be allowed on an Independent Baptist forum. His profile indicates that he is not an Independent Baptist and I cannot see where his presence here adds anything of a positive nature to OB..

[heartstrings]

I think he's just saying churches need to vet missionaries better and hold them accountable. Why not send a delegation on a "mission trip" to these locations from time to time? It would be a good experience for them as well.

[No Nicolaitans]

I'm on the fence. I have no reason to doubt his claims; I'm sure that most here would agree that there are some bad apples who are in Christian service.

I've learned to allow some leeway due to cultural differences. Perhaps the European country that LexUS is from is more open to this type of public scrutiny? 

It might be good...if LexUS may know the missionaries' sending Church(es) or the Mission Board(s) that are over the missionaries that he's referring to...it might be good to contact the sending Church(es) or Board(s) and express his concerns to them.

Edited November 7, 2016 by No Nicolaitans

[Jim_Alaska]

29 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

I think he's just saying churches need to vet missionaries better and hold them accountable. Why not send a delegation on a "mission trip" to these locations from time to time? It would be a good experience for them as well.

It has been my experience that a missionary's sending church oversees the mission work, Many times I have seen the sending church send it's pastor to observe the work in person. It was that way with the mission I was saved in when I was in Alaska.

We sent missionaries to far East Russia and our pastor went there to observe and help out a few times while it was still a mission work.

NN, To me a mission board has no place among Independent Baptists. A missionary should be sent out from a local church that is the actual sending church. All monies in support of the work are funneled through the sending church. This way there is accountability on both ends of mission support. We got monthly financial and progress reports from missionaries we supported, as well as those we sent out. 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Jim_Alaska
spelling

[No Nicolaitans]

2 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

It has been my experience that a missionary's sending church oversees the mission work, Many time I ahve seen the sending church send it's pastor to observe the work in person. It was that way with the mission I was saved in when I was in Alaska.

We sent missionaries to far East Russia and our pastor went there to observe and help out a few ties while it was still a mission work.

That's the way I believe it should be Bro. Jim. However, many IFB missionaries work under the umbrella of a Board...like BIMI. You're right, I should have said "sending Church or Mission Board". I'll edit what I said.

[Alan]

According to his profile, LexUs is not IFB.

It seems to me he is trying to destory the good missionary work of IFB missionaires in Europe.

In my journeys as an IFB missionary I have not met any IFB charlatans as LexUS is trying to portray. 

Why is he not bashing the Charismatics and other charlatans? Why does he come to an IFB forum and slander IFB missionaires? 

Edited November 8, 2016 by Alan
added the word, "forum"

[Jim_Alaska]

Good observations and questions Alan, and they are exactly the reason I am thinking of deleting his post.

[...]

A post like this casts a dark pall over all mission work. It is a poor choice of subjects when a new member makes a post like this as his first, introductory post. This person seems to have an ax to grind and exhibits no Christian qualities that I can see. His anger is freely expressed and we only get to hear one side of the story.

With respect, it is my opinion that, instead of silencing this voice, we should give him our ear, learn from his experiences and do what we can to change the attitude of many of our missionaries.

I have witnessed some of what the OP is complaining about.  He may have violated forum rules, but I empathize with him.  I know IFB missionaries who fit his description and I have  personally been on mission trips to South Africa in the past, with a non IFB church, and know that LexUS is justified in many of his claims.  I have been searching for a sound IFB church in my area for quite some time now without success because of some of the same complaints that LexUS has with missionaries.  It's obvious that he is upset about the issue and he admitted that he was writing out of anger. 

Personally, I think that post should stay.  I think the points that he raises are important enough to overlook any violations of forum rules.  Should a 911 operator hang up on a panicked caller if they use foul language?  I think it is an illustration of Romans 2:24:

"For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written."

[Jim_Alaska]

Brother Stafford,

I can see your point of view in part. But please understand that my concern is not just for violation of board rules, it is also my concern that this member seems to cast a negative reflection on ALL Independent Baptist mission work. He openly advocates not sending missionaries to eastern Europe, which serves to negate the instruction of Jesus to; "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

The man is admittedly not an Independent Baptist, which casts some doubt on his intentions. I have given him some time to reappear, see the responses to his post and address them. He may be just a "drive by shooter", here one day and gone the next. If he is and there is no further input from him, his post serves no beneficial additions to this forum.

The forum serves to edify and encourage brethren of like faith and order. This man is not of like faith and order and his post certainly does not edify Independent Baptists.

[Ukulelemike]

4 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Brother Stafford,

I can see your point of view in part. But please understand that my concern is not just for violation of board rules, it is also my concern that this member seems to cast a negative reflection on ALL Independent Baptist mission work. He openly advocates not sending missionaries to eastern Europe, which serves to negate the instruction of Jesus to; "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

The man is admittedly not an Independent Baptist, which casts some doubt on his intentions. I have given him some time to reappear, see the responses to his post and address them. He may be just a "drive by shooter", here one day and gone the next. If he is and there is no further input from him, his post serves no beneficial additions to this forum.

The forum serves to edify and encourage brethren of like faith and order. This man is not of like faith and order and his post certainly does not edify Independent Baptists.

And this is the only post he has made thus far, so he may be a drive-by. 

However, that being said, I know even here in the states, there is a tendency to think among some IFB's that a pastor deserves some special things. Just as a 'F'rinstance' in my experience, some time back, a friend gave my wife and I some money to purchase her a vehicle-he was making very good money and wanted to be a blessing to us. So, we went and bought a second-hand, 10-year old Land Rover. When we drove it to a friend's church, the pstor quipped, "Well, brother, it's about time you got a vehicle you deserve!" Like, there was something wrong with my pick-up, which got me from here to there reliably, but now, a "luxury status-symbol" car, (which we didn't even realize, we just wanted a nice 4x4), was what we 'deserved'. This pastor himself was never driving anything but cadillacs, even if they were older and second hand.  Personally I am happier with my Suburban and hope to get my 85 Bronco up and running soon, and then, maybe work on my 69 VW camper van

 

[LexUS.]

On 11/7/2016 at 7:01 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

It has been my experience that a missionary's sending church oversees the mission work, Many times I have seen the sending church send it's pastor to observe the work in person. It was that way with the mission I was saved in when I was in Alaska.

We sent missionaries to far East Russia and our pastor went there to observe and help out a few times while it was still a mission work.

NN, To me a mission board has no place among Independent Baptists. A missionary should be sent out from a local church that is the actual sending church. All monies in support of the work are funneled through the sending church. This way there is accountability on both ends of mission support. We got monthly financial and progress reports from missionaries we supported, as well as those we sent out. 

Sir, there were pastors coming. But they know what you know as a home church member. It is in the missionary interest to make his pastor's stay a treat, so why would he tell him all the bad things or let him see ? Trust me sir ! Here is what I saw, above that: some missionaries worked with the local non independent baptist brethren, they accepted their bad doctrines, their non KJV version and people in these countries, no matter what, Ukraine, Russia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, even Austria, Greece, Moldova Republic,they say: yes, amen , brother you are my brother, give us that money! " and then, after the missionary leaves their church, they change back to the old doctrine and the show is over ( that is extra info for you ). Southern baptists are most of them that come here and they are lied to, by the local churches that are not independent. I also saw how IFB missionaries changed their doctrine but did not let the home church and the supporting churches know and kept taking money. I traveled to 3 countries around mine and it's all the same. One missionary was even accused that he abused some kid or kids, in Hungary few years ago. I know a lot of things that showed me IFB are NOT as holy as they show and hope to be. We are all humans. I was a IFB. But I am not anymore. I respect the people that gave me the Gospel and I got saved, I respect the zeal of getting out the Gospel. But that does not justify all the bad things they do. I know at least 3 missionaries from all the countries listed above, and at least one personally,  I am not a liar. I met kinds of kinds, with BIMI and without, post trib and pre trib, Lordship salvation and non Lordship salvation. Yes, I know all about these things and more. I wish I would've never anyway. You are used to live by some level, some standard and you think that coming to a poor country, living the same, is justified because it's just the way you were raised. That does not work like that. People in eastern block are ex comunists, they like to lie and cheat. They are good for nothing and they don't know God. That is what missionaries tend to think about my people.Not all but most have a sort of superiority. " WE,IN USA DO THIS, WE IN US ARE LIKE THAT, WE IN USA, DON'T SAY OR DO THAT, YOU DO IT, IS WRONG ! " Like we don't know it. I can easily say too, that America is on pills and crime rate is ...no comment ! Pride comes before ...?

Edited November 8, 2016 by LexUS.

[Jim_Alaska]

LexUS, thank you for returning and attempting to clarify your original post. I cannot and will not deny what you say you saw. You saw it and I did not, therefore it would be wrong of me to say those things did not happen.

I find it difficult to understand how a visiting pastor would not know the financial circumstances his missionary worked under. If he visited the missionary he would certainly see the house he lived in and the car he drove. In addition to that, the visiting pastor would be well aware of how much monetary support the missionary was getting, as well as what was considered normal wages and expenses of the people living there.

But I will say that my experiences with foreign missionaries has been quite different from what you experienced. One missionary friend of mine who has since gone to be with the Lord, served as an Independent Baptist missionary to Rhodesia for thirty years. During that time Rhodesia was a turmoil of terrorism and revolution. He and his wife labored under very dangerous circumstances and his monetary support was not extravagant. God provided what he needed, but he was not living high. Here is a link to a story about his being ambushed by terrorists.

His total time in Africa was 50 years. In his early ministry he and his wife lived as the villagers did that he was ministering to. Many times that meant a mud hut and eating whatever was the normal fare for the villagers.

The two missionary families that my church in Alaska sent to far east Russia lived exactly like the local Russians lived. It was extremely difficult for our church to send anything to them that they could not get where they lived because of restrictive customs regulations.

I told you these two stories so that you could see that not all Independent Baptist missionaries operate in the manner that you have experienced. I would also encourage you to pray and work diligently to find a sound Independent Baptist church or mission work to attend.

If we here at Online Baptist can be of any help to you please just ask. I am sure that many here would be more than willing to answer questions or give advice concerning Independent Baptists.

[.LexUS.]

1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

LexUS, thank you for returning and attempting to clarify your original post. I cannot and will not deny what you say you saw. You saw it and I did not, therefore it would be wrong of me to say those things did not happen.

I find it difficult to understand how a visiting pastor would not know the financial circumstances his missionary worked under. If he visited the missionary he would certainly see the house he lived in and the car he drove. In addition to that, the visiting pastor would be well aware of how much monetary support the missionary was getting, as well as what was considered normal wages and expenses of the people living there.

But I will say that my experiences with foreign missionaries has been quite different from what you experienced. One missionary friend of mine who has since gone to be with the Lord, served as an Independent Baptist missionary to Rhodesia for thirty years. During that time Rhodesia was a turmoil of terrorism and revolution. He and his wife labored under very dangerous circumstances and his monetary support was not extravagant. God provided what he needed, but he was not living high. Here is a link to a story about his being ambushed by terrorists.

His total time in Africa was 50 years. In his early ministry he and his wife lived as the villagers did that he was ministering to. Many times that meant a mud hut and eating whatever was the normal fare for the villagers.

The two missionary families that my church in Alaska sent to far east Russia lived exactly like the local Russians lived. It was extremely difficult for our church to send anything to them that they could not get where they lived because of restrictive customs regulations.

I told you these two stories so that you could see that not all Independent Baptist missionaries operate in the manner that you have experienced. I would also encourage you to pray and work diligently to find a sound Independent Baptist church or mission work to attend.

If we here at Online Baptist can be of any help to you please just ask. I am sure that many here would be more than willing to answer questions or give advice concerning Independent Baptists.

First of all, I could not reply after my first post because I could not re-sign in. Second, I posted in the Introduce Yourself because I could not post anywhere else. But then I though that the title fits me as a newbie anyway. Third, this is my third account and I think I'll stop posting if after I sign out this time too, I can't re sign in, I mean I even sent a Forgot Password, even if all I type is recorded on my computer and I knew I did not messed up looking back on records. I did not get any recovery password in my mail or spam - junk section. Forth, I know IFB churches, but I go to the union ones, non independent, that's where my relatives go and where I came from, unsaved. I believe that not all missionaries are like I saw and even they are good people. Especially the one s that were raised in a christian family. I know some that told me they don't know how is to be drunk. But others came from world families , got saved, got sent. I believe it, that they lived in Africa like africans, first of all because it was "back then" and because the land demanded so but also because they submitted to it. My hole mentality about prayer is different than most christians, some acussed me of being not even biblical. Why? because I don't beg in front of God anymore. I ask and wait. Also, I don't ask becasue God knows that I know what I need. Nowdays prayer is a show ! Yes, we were asked to pray publicly but wow me how they abuse it ! Altar calling was and is a weird practice to me, simply that I believe in a personal closet prayer type and also because is a sign of weakness, that most christians misunderstand and confuse it with christian weakness. People take advantage of your sins, publicly spilled. I believe in christian confession or "let it go forgive and shrink " but not so dumb , pardon my french !

Edited November 11, 2016 by .LexUS.

[Jordan Kurecki]

I think this thread should be deleted. I see little here that brings honor or glory to Jesus Christ.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Jordan Kurecki