Pot calling the kettle black?

[futurehope]

I find it interesting that many times on this site, if a church or someone else has taken a conservative stand on something, there are people who will lash out at them. And it doesn't seem to matter if they are pushing their belief, God's word, or just simply making a statement as to how they feel personally about something.

Now I completely agree that if someone chooses to be conservative beyond what God commands, they have that right and God Bless them for it. They just shouldn't "push" that on others and call it God's if it is their own. And should be corrected if they do.

On the flip side of the argument, we have people who will try to justify liberalism outside of what God intended through misinterpretting the Bible. That's one thing, but when they then call "ultra-conservative" people legalists just for believing in something (without pushing it on anyone), have they not become hypocrites in a way?

I believe that there are people and churches who take things a step more conservative than what God requires. However, as long as the church has claimed to hold that belief, it is their own and I would much rather them err on the side of being conservative. So who is to judge them? They are not breaking any commandments in this as long as they don't try to add to God's word and say that what they have decided for themselves is His commandment. Have they?

The liberal side of things on the other hand has wrongly tried to justify sinful actions with the liberty that Christ has given to some of the law. And then to condemn others for disagreeing with their practices? I don't get it.

Now that I've put this up, I should probably get under my chair, as I'm sure things are about to start flying. Just keep in mind if you would please, I posted this for us all to take a look at the way we interact with eachother (myself included) and because I am not at all interested in doctrines of man, but only in the truths and commandments taught in God's Word. Well, I'll go hide now. :smile :hide

[chev1958]

And your point is?

[bzmomo7]

YIKES!!!!!!!!!!! :hide (Let me know when it is safe to come out)

[Anon]

I think its an extremely good point. In a nutshell, I understand this to be saying that its "ok" for the more "liberal" views to get upset with the "ultra conservative" views, but not vice versa.

For instance, I don't wear headcoverings. But I have no right to call a woman who wears a headcovering a "legalist". I simply allow her to have her views and I have mine, from the Bible of course. But on here, sometimes if someone believes something like not wearing pants, they get condemned as wrong or unfair or a legalist.

Yep, good point.

Also "liberty" is another good topic...our "liberty" is the liberty not to sin. We are no longer in bondage to sin. We will sin, but we are not in "bondage" to it now that we are saved. "Liberty" is not the freedom to do how we please as long as we are "not convicted yet."

[kevinmiller]

I agree. Neither side should be condemning the other based on personal convictions or preferences. After all, who are we to judge another man's servant?

[Danny Carlton]

My experience has always been that the more "liberal" the person leans, the less rational their response to disagreement will be. Mainly because real "ultra-conservative" makes no bones about being close-minded, where as on the other side they are closed-minded, while pretending to be open-minded, thus have to use some really odd rationalization to explain why. In all honesty, the true middle is what the MSM refer to as "right-wing" making both politics and religion very confusing.

[zealyouthguy]

I personally think we need to stop using the words "liberal" and "conservative" to describe Christians outside the political realm, since both terms have been hijacked to mean something significantly different than what they originally meant.

As Christians we should be liberal. We should share the word liberally, we should love liberally, we should give liberally, and we should live liberally.

We need more people with faith in God through Christ Jesus and less with faith in their political party.

If you can't say something is sin, don't condemn it... also, get really worried if what everyone else does is sin, but what you do isn't... if that's the case, you've lost focus on Christ and began to focus on You and others.

[kevinmiller]

I agree that we use the word liberal too liberally.
Liberal and conservative in the Christian realm is far too subjective. For most people, liberal is whoever has standards that are less than their own. Therefore, liberality is based on the perspective of the person using it. A person might appear liberal and be exactly where God wants them but doesn't hold to the same standards and convictions of someone else.

[deputydog530]

Good postings. I have noted in the last few years of my studies just these types of things. Kitagrl nailed it.

For instance, I don't wear headcoverings. But I have no right to call a woman who wears a headcovering a "legalist". I simply allow her to have her views and I have mine, from the Bible of course. But on here, sometimes if someone believes something like not wearing pants, they get condemned as wrong or unfair or a legalist.

I realized I held some beliefs after I was saved because that is what I was told to believe. Study of the Word of God revealed the truth. When I presented the biblical answerto the teacher, I was condemed for it. Interesting that I had scripture to back up my point and the other person was using a definition from Strongs condordance to teach a doctrine.

We need to quit worrying so much about weather or not preachers should wear white shirts, women dresses, etc. :hide These things are the job of the Holy Spirit. Ive watched the Holy Spirit (as well as expirenced it in my own life) make changes to people that no one else could have ever convinced them by just telling them or condeming them.

We need to get back to going into all the world preaching the gospel. I think if we did that and preached against sin more rather than what we think, our churches would have a lot more saved people in them.

[bambohs]

I find it interesting that many times on this site, if a church or someone else has taken a conservative stand on something, there are people who will lash out at them. And it doesn't seem to matter if they are pushing their belief, God's word, or just simply making a statement as to how they feel personally about something.

Now I completely agree that if someone chooses to be conservative beyond what God commands, they have that right and God Bless them for it. They just shouldn't "push" that on others and call it God's if it is their own. And should be corrected if they do.

On the flip side of the argument, we have people who will try to justify liberalism outside of what God intended through misinterpretting the Bible. That's one thing, but when they then call "ultra-conservative" people legalists just for believing in something (without pushing it on anyone), have they not become hypocrites in a way?

I believe that there are people and churches who take things a step more conservative than what God requires. However, as long as the church has claimed to hold that belief, it is their own and I would much rather them err on the side of being conservative. So who is to judge them? They are not breaking any commandments in this as long as they don't try to add to God's word and say that what they have decided for themselves is His commandment. Have they?

The liberal side of things on the other hand has wrongly tried to justify sinful actions with the liberty that Christ has given to some of the law. And then to condemn others for disagreeing with their practices? I don't get it.

Now that I've put this up, I should probably get under my chair, as I'm sure things are about to start flying. Just keep in mind if you would please, I posted this for us all to take a look at the way we interact with eachother (myself included) and because I am not at all interested in doctrines of man, but only in the truths and commandments taught in God's Word. Well, I'll go hide now. :smile :hide

You do an exceptional job of writing and presenting your points in a way that encourages discussion, Futurehope. I'd like to add my thoughts and I hope to achieve the same thing.

I was thinking as I started reading that yours would be an un-biased set of observations. But if you will permit me to summarize what I am understanding about your post, then my thoughts may come through clear.

You seem to be saying that "liberals" (=sinners) should not defend themselves when they are attacked. And that liberals should stop attacking people for being "ultra-conservative". Well - I haven't seen that here at all. I have never heard a liberal tell someone they are wrong for being "ultra-conservative". But I have heard "Ultras" being challenged for the stance that "others should be just like me or else they are following Satan". That shows up in just about every conversation around here. And the usual response from a liberal is "that isn't in the Bible".
So while I agree that there are folks at both ends of the spectrum, I find myself coming up with a different conclusion than you in my analysis.

By the way, I only used the word "liberal" as a tool for differentiation. I know REAL LIBERALS, and I've seen nothing but good solid conservatives here at OB, albeit with varied opinions.

I would like to add a separate observation here. I'm not IFB - I'm Southern Baptist. That is one reason I've lurked for almost 3 years before posting. I felt it important to understand the issues here and where the posters are "coming from" and to make it a point to respectful as a guest. That being said ... correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like one of the primary spirits among IFB is condemnation. Considering that this is a message board and not a congregation, my impressions may be way off base. I am willing to be straightened out!

And a quick comment regarding Danny's post. The common way to end a discussion here is for someone to say "you can believe what you want, but I'm just going to stick with God and the Scripture". Is that a component of a "rational" or "logical" response? I mean, fundamentally I think we ALL want to live by that statement, but to use it as a tool to avoid answering a difficult question has different implications.

Blessings,
Gary

[joyfulpraise93]

I find it interesting that many times on this site, if a church or someone else has taken a conservative stand on something, there are people who will lash out at them. And it doesn't seem to matter if they are pushing their belief, God's word, or just simply making a statement as to how they feel personally about something.

Now I completely agree that if someone chooses to be conservative beyond what God commands, they have that right and God Bless them for it. They just shouldn't "push" that on others and call it God's if it is their own. And should be corrected if they do.

On the flip side of the argument, we have people who will try to justify liberalism outside of what God intended through misinterpretting the Bible. That's one thing, but when they then call "ultra-conservative" people legalists just for believing in something (without pushing it on anyone), have they not become hypocrites in a way?

I believe that there are people and churches who take things a step more conservative than what God requires. However, as long as the church has claimed to hold that belief, it is their own and I would much rather them err on the side of being conservative. So who is to judge them? They are not breaking any commandments in this as long as they don't try to add to God's word and say that what they have decided for themselves is His commandment. Have they?

The liberal side of things on the other hand has wrongly tried to justify sinful actions with the liberty that Christ has given to some of the law. And then to condemn others for disagreeing with their practices? I don't get it.

Now that I've put this up, I should probably get under my chair, as I'm sure things are about to start flying. Just keep in mind if you would please, I posted this for us all to take a look at the way we interact with eachother (myself included) and because I am not at all interested in doctrines of man, but only in the truths and commandments taught in God's Word. Well, I'll go hide now. :smile :hide

I think something that would be helpful is for everyone to read 1 Corinthians 13 every day. Charity to our brothers and sisters in Christ (and to the lost world) is something lacking in all of our lives, or at least we could always have more of it. My Sunday school at church has memorized the entire chapter and it just clicked to me yesterday...

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

We can truly believe that what we know about the Bible is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and naturally we think everyone should see it the way we do and understand it. But if we don't present this knowledge with charity and have real charity in our hearts it profiteth us nothing. Obviously on these boards, when we present what we think without charity all it does is bring dischord. The same when others disagree with us...if it's not done in charity it doesn't profit us anything.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...

Whether or not I strongly disagree with someone (liberal or conservative in their thoughts) I am going to do my best to respond in charity in my words, deeds, and truly in my heart. I know I have failed in this. Just by reading the definition of charity written above it's pretty obvious that many of us have failed to keep it in mind. I'm in no wise condoning watering down Scripture or letting down your standards. Just trying to understand that we are all on different levels of spiritual growth and in dealing with things in different areas. Just trying to have charity toward those who disagree with us.

This post may not really fit this thread, but it seemed the only place I could bear what's been on my heart these past few days without starting a new thread and drawing a lot of attention to it. I've been thinking about it a lot since Jerry left....if we all used more charity (myself totally included) perhaps people wouldn't see the need to step away from the board because the friction here is causing them to be hurt or filled with anger. So from now on I'm going to evaluate each post by 1 Cor 13 before I submit it. Anyways at least I feel better for getting all this off my mind. THe Lord has been speaking to me about it for the past little while and I thought I'd share it with you, my OB friends. :)

[JerryNumbers]

One thing that stirs up things is those who do not believe as Independent Fundamental Baptist believes and argue against the beliefs of the Independent Fundamental Baptist in many of the topics that comes up.

They get aggravated for some of us not accepting their way, we sometimes get tired of them tearing down our the Baptist beliefs.

For instant, if I went to a church of Christ message board, and in many of the topics that come up I stressed that I disagree with coC teachings and I'm not a coC member, and continued to argue against their beliefs and teachings over and over, I would not expect them to act very loving to me after I did it a few times.

By the way I would not be surprised at all if I started showing up at every service of a coC service and each time argue against their teaching and proclaimed I'm not a coC that after awhile I would not be treated with love.

But them if I went to such places with the intent to learn, and just asked polite question and not constantly tear their beliefs down and proclaim I'm not a coC and I don't believe that way, that they are wrong, I figure they would treat me with love.

But that said, some seems to think when some express their opinion, that they are trying to force it on them. I feel that most people here are not trying to do that, they're simply expressing their opinion on the matter.

I know of one person here who professes not to be a Christian, but yet in their post they do not tear down the beliefs of the Independent Fundamental Baptist, yet they post quite often, ask and answer post. I've noticed everyone here has shows much respect for this persons post and they are never arguing against Independent Fundamental Baptist beliefs.

[HappyChristian]

I think something that would be helpful is for everyone to read 1 Corinthians 13 every day. Charity to our brothers and sisters in Christ (and to the lost world) is something lacking in all of our lives, or at least we could always have more of it. My Sunday school at church has memorized the entire chapter and it just clicked to me yesterday...

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." 1 Cor 13:2

We can truly believe that what we know about the Bible is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH and naturally we think everyone should see it the way we do and understand it. But if we don't present this knowledge with charity and have real charity in our hearts it profiteth us nothing. Obviously on these boards, when we present what we think without charity all it does is bring dischord. The same when others disagree with us...if it's not done in charity it doesn't profit us anything.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...

Whether or not I strongly disagree with someone (liberal or conservative in their thoughts) I am going to do my best to respond in charity in my words, deeds, and truly in my heart. I know I have failed in this. Just by reading the definition of charity written above it's pretty obvious that many of us have failed to keep it in mind. I'm in no wise condoning watering down Scripture or letting down your standards. Just trying to understand that we are all on different levels of spiritual growth and in dealing with things in different areas. Just trying to have charity toward those who disagree with us.

This post may not really fit this thread, but it seemed the only place I could bear what's been on my heart these past few days without starting a new thread and drawing a lot of attention to it. I've been thinking about it a lot since Jerry left....if we all used more charity (myself totally included) perhaps people wouldn't see the need to step away from the board because the friction here is causing them to be hurt or filled with anger. So from now on I'm going to evaluate each post by 1 Cor 13 before I submit it. Anyways at least I feel better for getting all this off my mind. THe Lord has been speaking to me about it for the past little while and I thought I'd share it with you, my OB friends.

POST OF THE MONTH!!!!!!! :thumb

[lettheredeemedsayso]

It is difficult to know the exact context of what you are speaking about without your giving specific examples. What you may call "pushing" may be what someone esle considers teaching the Word of God. If you don't get specific it will be hard to address the behavior of which you speak.

[Anon]

...and getting specific brings on the type of behavior the poster was referring to. LOL.