What is your position on music and why?

[TheSword]

What music "naturally makes" a person feel certain emotions? We do have a choice in such matters.

One person can hear "creepy" music watching a show and get scared while another can hear that same "creepy" music but isn't creeped out by it.

... 

None of this means I agree that all forms of music have a place in church or that anything and everything is good for a Christian to partake of. Just that with some music, how various people perceive and receive the music can be very different from how others do.

Certainly, I'll give it to you that we have a choice to actively listen to music and allow it to affect us, but that doesn't negate what the music does by nature of it's composition. Certain music styles create certain effect (and certainly some are more susceptible to some types than others). Consider this excerpt from a study on how music effects emotions:

"Depending on if the song is fast and loud, you brain can get signals causing it to give your body a type of adrenaline. Other slower and quiet songs have been shown to
help calm down the brain and can benefit you by helping with memorization and concentration. The data I collected supports my conjecture. Music can enhance an emotional feeling and the difference in genres range in tempo and sound waves which switches your emotions based on the effects the sound has on your brain."

And this additional academic research study:

"The emotions people feel from listening to music are interpreted by the entire brain. Negative emotions are interpreted in the right hemisphere of the brain and positive emotions are interpreted in the left hemisphere (Davis and Palladino, 2006, pp 262). Music has the power to change people’s feelings; in fact, music therapy has recently become a popular method of helping people deal with problems such as stress, anxiety, and pain (Music Therapy Makes a Difference, 2004). Therapists also recommend music as a means of “positive change in mood and emotional states” (Shinn, 2005)."

There is a reason people like to do things like listen to classical music when they study or relax, heavy metal during intense workouts, rock/R&B when they want to dance and party, and rap when they want to get deviant.  The point is that musical style is not neutral. It has an effect on those who choose to take it in.

I'll give you that perception has a lot to do with how people receive music, because a genre cannot be separated from its cultural origin. However, that just shows another layer of how music evokes certain emotions. I'm with you that we often go overboard on what constitutes good vs. bad music, but there really is no denying that there is a distinction among genres that must be taken with discernment.

[Ukulelemike]

You know, we can choose to poo-poo the research done on music and its effects on the human brain, but men and women with actual degrees and years of study on exactly that subject have done great amounts of research into it. And seriously, it doesn't take a genius or musician to open one's eyes and see how music effects us. That is why there is a rock culture, and a punk culture, and a rap culture, and a metal culture. That's why people dress as KISS band members, and wear clothes that emulate certain groups, and spend millions per year on t-shirts of their bands. Its how the Beatles had such a huge influence on an entire generation, or Elvis.

Secular musicians are not afraid to be very frank about music and its effects, and we as believers should take notice of it.

“The whole Beatles idea was to do what you want … do what thou wilst, as long as it doesn’t hurt somebody” (John Lennon, cited by David Sheff, The Playboy Interviews with John Lennon and Yoko Ono, p. 61). 

“... the whole idea of rock 'n' roll is to offend your parents” (Rock drummer King Coffey, The Truth about Rock, p. 30). 

“… rock ‘n’ roll is more than just music--it is the energy center of a new culture and youth revolution” (advertisement for Rolling Stone magazine).

“In a sense all rock is revolutionary. By its very beat and sound it has always implicitly rejected restraints and has celebrated freedom and sexuality” (Time magazine, Jan. 3, 1969).

“Rock 'n' roll is a beast. Well-intentioned people thought you could pick it up and cuddle it. They forgot it had claws of the bands--The Slits, The Damned, Bad Manners, The Vibrators, The Stranglers and Meat Loaf. ... I know, because I was one of them. Behind every sweet doowop and bebop is an unfettered sexuality and sympathy for the devil: a violently anarchic--in the face of all harmony, peace and progress. People could see that when it first happened and it hasn’t changed. Anybody with a penn’orthy of grey matter could see it was trouble” (Ray Gosling, BBC Radio 4 program “Crooning Buffoons,” The Listener, Feb. 11, 1982).

“The [rock] medium is so anti-Christian in its ethos--libertarian, anti-authoritarian, equating infatuation and sexual attraction with love, and on the drug-culture fringe--that when Christians assume that ethos to communicate the message of self-denial, cross-bearing and following Christ then it utterly mangles the message” (Colin Chapman, “Modern Music and Evangelism,” Background to the Task, Evangelical Alliance Commission on Evangelism, 1968).  (Christians used to know this)

“Rock music has got the same message as before. It is anti-religious, anti-nationalistic and anti-morality. But now I understand what you have to do. You have to put the message across with a little honey on it” (John Lennon, spoken not long before his death in 1980, Pop Goes the Gospel, p. 84).

“Rock concerts are the churches of today. Music puts them on a spiritual plane. All music is God” (Craig Chaquico, Jefferson Airplane guitarist, Why Knock Rock?, p. 96).

“Rock ‘n’ roll marked the beginning of the revolution. … We’ve combined youth, music, sex, drugs, and rebellion with treason, and that’s a combination hard to beat” (Jerry Rubin, Do It!, 1970, pp. 19, 249).

“The main purpose of rock and roll is celebration of the self” (Daryl Hall of Hall and Oates, interview with Timothy White, 1987, Rock Lives, p. 594).

“The great strength of rock ‘n’ roll lies in its beat … it is a music which is basically sexual, un-Puritan … and a threat to established patterns and values” (Irwin Silber, Marxist, Sing Out, May 1965, p. 63).

“The main ingredients in rock are … sex and sass” (Debra Harry, Hit Parader, Sept. 1979, p. 31).  “Rock is the total celebration of the physical” (Ted Nugent, rock star, Rolling Stone, Aug. 25, 1977, pp. 11-13).   “Rock ‘n’ roll is 99% sex” (John Oates of the rock duo Hall & Oates, Circus, Jan. 31, 1976).   “Rock music is sex. The big beat matches the body’s rhythms” (Frank Zappa of the Mothers of Invention, Life, June 28, 1968).   “That’s what rock is all about--sex with a 100 megaton bomb, the beat!” (Gene Simmons of the rock group Kiss, interview, Entertainment Tonight, ABC, Dec. 10, 1987).   “Pop music revolves around sexuality. I believe that if there is anarchy, let’s make it sexual anarchy rather than political” (Adam Ant, From Rock to Rock, p. 93).   “Rock ‘n’ roll is sex. Real rock ‘n’ roll isn’t based on cerebral thoughts. It’s based on one’s lower nature” (Paul Stanley, cited by John Muncy, The Role of Rock, p. 44).   “Rock ‘n’ roll is all sex. One hundred percent sex” (Debbie Harry of the rock band Blondie, cited by Carl Belz, “Television Shows and Rock Music,” as it appeared in The Age of Communication, William Lutz, Goodyear Publishing Company, 1974, p. 398).   “The throbbing beat of rock-and-roll provides a vital sexual release for its adolescent audience” (Jan Berry of Jan and Dean, cited by Blanchard, Pop Goes the Gospel).  “Rock and roll aims for liberation and transcendence, eroticizing the spiritual and spiritualizing the erotic, because that is its ecumenical birthright” (Robert Palmer, Rock & Roll an Unruly History, p. 72).   “There is a great deal of powerful, albeit subliminal, sexual stimulation implicit in both the rhythm and [the] lyrics of rock music” (Dr. David Elkind, chairman of the Eliot-Pearson Department of Child Study at Tufts University in Massachusetts, The Hurried Child, Reading, Mass.: Addison Wesley Publishing Co., 1981, p. 89).  

I will stop here, but there are many, many more, to be found at http://www.wayoflife.org/database/characteristics_and_philosopy_of_rock.php

The point is, the reason rockers are so successful, is that they know exactly what rock music is, and how to use it. Our continual denial of it only makes us look like fools, and blind, and the lost are quite amused by it. We are supposed to shrug off the chains of the world when we get saved, instead, we just paint them up and call them jewelry.  

 

[Gorship]

a while back, i changed my view on rock and metal and threw everything out... slowly i realized i did this in haste and have decided that music tone, and instrumentation on their own cannot be evil. not until I get a chapter and verse that says otherwise... quotations from fallen men, or opinionated pastors is not scripture, its conjecture. thus I just check all lyrics, and see what emotions the particular song brings (on any given day even). Discernment is key.

I read about how Bach was ostracized for his music in the church... BACH, LOL. that was the stamp of "until chapter and verse, no sense trying to make a dogma" between the piano taking years to be accepted etc etc. I just pray for discernment and wait to hear from God face to face about how He feels on the matter.

I do think that corperate worship music should be something all enjoy as to not offend a brother. personal music should still honor God but stylistically I see no scriptural basis to draw lines.

just my .02

[Ukulelemike]

Jordan, maybe when you 'changed your opinion' the first time, you DID hear from God. Maybe you have just decided to go back to feeding your flesh? You say you don't want to hear 'opinions' from 'fallen men' or opinionated pastors. However, you, yourself, are a fallen man, saved by grace, yes, but still fallen. And some of those 'opinionated pastors' have done extensive study on the subject both of CCM and its effects on churches, as well as just on the subject of music. Where is your area of expertise? As for the quotations, these are the very men and women who invented and played rock and roll, and includes all their intentions and experiences with the music style, so they are kind of subject matter experts, as well. But Jordan like rock, so its okay, ignore everyone, all warnings, everything, because its just a bunch of opinions.

So since the Bible doesn't say, chapter and verse, don't smoke cigarettes, I assume you're okay with it. And since it doesn't say don't watch internet porn, I guess you're good with that. And since it doesn't tell us not to drive your car above the speed limit, you have no issue there?  Now, here's the thing, my guess is, that because the Bible DOES say things which can be applied to these, you will of course say its comparing apples to oranges, or some such. The Bible says the body is the temple of the Spirit, so of course, since smoking is damaging to that temple, we know its wrong. And since the Bible says not to lust, we know internet porn is out. And since we are to obey the laws of men, as long as they don't disagree with God's word, well, then speeding is clearly wrong.   And yet, you can't seem to make that jump that rock music is clearly worldly in its styles, that the STYLE is admittedly intended to incite violence, rebellion, disobedience and many other wicked responses, and as such, to combine the message of God with the message of worldly music styles is to break the commands of separation? As you said, discernment is key.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." (2Cor 6:14-18) 

The CCM musicians themselves ignore these commands, because their recording labels are the exact same ones that record secular rock artists. They emulate the secular world with their own awards program, the Dove Awards, so they can have their little gold statue on the mantle, just like Brittany Spears or Metallica. They wear long hair and sport tattoos and look for all the world, no different than lost secular artists. They imitate them in virtually every way, to the point of watering down the message to have legitimacy, and maybe do some cross-over work, like POD or Amy Grant. They intentionally conform to the world.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Rom 12:2)

CCM was specifically designed to be conformed to this world, to copy it, to sound like it. That Bach and others like him were an irritant to the CATHOLIC church means nothing in this. That's a straw argument, like those who insist that people like Martin Luther put his songs to music played in bars, not understanding that 'bar music' is not 'music played in bars'.  The clear fact, that anyone willing to look at it, is that rock and roll music, and those which is came from, blues and jazz, and all of the various incarnation of rock, ie, rap, metal, punk, etc, have a wicked history and wicked.

But hey, its all just this opinionated pastor's thing, I guess. Maybe you need to find someone to scratch your ears for you, rather than some old opinionated old IFB preacher.

[TheSword]

not until I get a chapter and verse that says otherwise...

This not against you personally, but I absolutely hate this phrase. Generally speaking, it reveals a couple different attitudes.

1. Most people who say this don't actually bother to search the Bible for anything that speaks to the issue one way or they other. It's usually a cop-out justification that attempts to put the burden on whoever claims the opposite position. A mature Christian should diligently investigate Scripture on whatever issue is in question and then form their position based on any and all principles that apply. Sitting back and waiting on someone else to "prove" something right, wrong, or indifferent is lazy Christianity.

2. Most people who say this have the attitude of seeing how much they can get away with rather than what is best for honoring Christ and propagating the Gospel. If you really care about God's will more than your own desires, you'll almost always err on the side of restricting your liberty instead of expressing it. 1 Cor 8-10 is a great study for this point. If you want God to use you and to be fully in His service, you need to stay away from the line between sin and non-sin rather than trying to toe it.

[John81]

Wow! You people have been so deprived of a great post I just typed out and OB ate for lunch when I clicked Submit Reply!

Well then, I'm going to think on the song, "It is well with my soul" and then spend some time this afternoon in my study on prayer.

[Gorship]

Jordan, maybe when you 'changed your opinion' the first time, you DID hear from God. (your starting off on a poor foot to convince me of anything at this point, do you feel superior to me in some way? you go on to say that we are all sinners, perhaps you forget this too? why put "Changed your opinion" in quotations at all, what are you appealing to? emotion? perhaps I did, perhaps I didn't, this isnt for you to decide nor can you.) Maybe you have just decided to go back to feeding your flesh? You say you don't want to hear 'opinions' from 'fallen men' or opinionated pastors. However, you, yourself, are a fallen man, saved by grace, yes, but still fallen. And some of those 'opinionated pastors' have done extensive study on the subject both of CCM and its effects on churches (Study sure, extensive? ehh,  the things Ive read in "becareful little ears" or "why i left the ccm movement" were completely nonsensical, eg: a beat on a 2nd and 4th compared to a 1st and 3rd doesnt all of a sudden make it evil... It just doesnt that is beyond superstitious)., as well as just on the subject of music. Where is your area of expertise? (I build Docks, fix computers internal and external, do CAD Design with Solidworks; peter was a fisherman, he must therefore have no expertise about Jesus....oh wait are we talking about things we've studied then! because remember, occupation doesn't make you an expert in something. Sure I have studied the Bible and Music, I rotate my view and playlist frequently as a try and hone in on what I feel is a Biblical view.) As for the quotations, these are the very men and women who invented and played rock and roll, and includes all their intentions and experiences with the music style, so they are kind of subject matter experts Erp hold up, who invented sound? who gave ideas for instruments...? how we use them becomes the critical question, tone and feel and subjective. as well. But Jordan like rock, so its okay, ignore everyone, all warnings, everything, because its just a bunch of opinions. You have a poor attitude, I'm not sure if your trying to be demeaning or just plain rude? This is basically just sarcastic ad hominem... sad for an old time preacher. You speak to other people this way or just online?

So since the Bible doesn't say, chapter and verse, don't smoke cigarettes, I assume you're okay with it. And since it doesn't say don't watch internet porn, I guess you're good with that. And since it doesn't tell us not to drive your car above the speed limit, you have no issue there?  Now, here's the thing, my guess is, that because the Bible DOES say things which can be applied to these, you will of course say its comparing apples to oranges, or some such. The Bible says the body is the temple of the Spirit, so of course, since smoking is damaging to that temple, we know its wrong. And since the Bible says not to lust, we know internet porn is out. And since we are to obey the laws of men, as long as they don't disagree with God's word, well, then speeding is clearly wrong.   And yet, you can't seem to make that jump that rock music is clearly worldly in its styles, that the STYLE is admittedly intended to incite violence, rebellion, disobedience and many other wicked responses, and as such, to combine the message of God with the message of worldly music styles is to break the commands of separation? As you said, discernment is key. Please See: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23620-what-is-your-position-on-music-and-why/?do=findComment&comment=409456  as HoS already dismantled this nonsense.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." (2Cor 6:14-18)

Good verse, poor exegesis. Why were oxen yolked together? to commit a task, so if you had a short one and a tall one, they couldnt do it, if one was tied one way and the other backwards, they would go in a circle. Im not advocating Christian Musicians sign up with non christians and try and play gospel music, I would rather see the entire genre reclaimed for Gods glory.

The CCM musicians themselves ignore these commands, because their recording labels are the exact same ones that record secular rock artists. n..not true... there are plenty of Christian run labels (Facedown records, solidstate records, soundmass) furthermore crowd funding allows artists to bypass the label all together. FURTHER TO THAT if an artist wanted to truly be separate from a secular label (now your verse is starting to apply as this would make them yolked for a same purpose) they could just not go with the label and stay small.  They emulate the secular world with their own awards program, the Dove Awards, so they can have their little gold statue on the mantle, just like Brittany Spears or Metallica. They wear long hair and sport tattoos and look for all the world, no different than lost secular artists. Not all artists have tattoos or long hair, some do, perhaps you should start a ministry helping disciple them while they try and reach the dark corners of society. Ive always thought that would be a great ministry as im sure its spiritually tiring. They imitate them in virtually every way, to the point of watering down the message to have legitimacy, and maybe do some cross-over work, like POD or Amy Grant. They intentionally conform to the world. Odds are they dont consider it worldly, mistaken perhaps, who knows. good thing God looks on the inside.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Rom 12:2)

Technically speaking there are secular versions of all types of music, so how do we distinguish who is copying who? Lyrics, style? what we like or dont like? curious.

CCM was specifically designed to be conformed to this world, to copy it, to sound like it.love to hear your source on that, Jewish to then Christian have been playing music since Genesis 1, picking up on a style and using it to sing praises doesnt mean its some tactical off shoot. Perhaps some artists treat it that way, but that doesn't determine its definition, just how an artist looks at his mission.  That Bach and others like him were an irritant to the CATHOLIC church means nothing in this. That's a straw argument False again well i mean maybe the catholics didnt like him but i was referring to a Lutheran church (Arnstadt Lutheran Church actually: "This led to the position of church organist at Arnstadt.  But church leaders were suspicious because his music was so complicated." (source:http://www.classicalmusicindy.org/learn/composers/) and, "The Church Council resolved to reprimand Bach on his 'strange sounds' during the services," (source: http://www.baroquemusic.org/bqxjsbach.html#AR), like those who insist that people like Martin Luther put his songs to music played in bars, not understanding that 'bar music' is not 'music played in bars'. And again with the ad hominem, "Im smart your not" tsk tsk.  The clear fact so clear..., that anyone willing to look at it, is that rock and roll music, and those which is came from, blues and jazz, and all of the various incarnation of rock, ie, rap, metal, punk, etc, have a wicked history and wicked.

But hey, its all just this opinionated pastor's thing, I guess. Maybe you need to find someone to scratch your ears for you, rather than some old opinionated old IFB preacher. I dont need my ears scratched like you hastly imply with another "your stupid and dont want to hear reasoning" argument. again I am curious if your goal is to help one learn or to just rail accusations. Cause theres this guy name Satan who does that all day and night and I dont think his job is up for at least 7 years come the rapture.

[John81]

The beat thing reminded me of a time when our associate pastor was still in college and he was the head of the student Baptist group. They were putting together a program and as he was trying to help get the music portion ready and practiced there was a problem. Whites would clap on the 2nd and 4th beat while blacks would clap on the 1st and 3rd. That created some difficulty in them singing together and trying to get their newly formed choir to be all sing and clap to the same beat, as it were.

From what I've read, this is unique to American blacks. A black man who visited Africa reported black Africans have no rhythm at all as he compared it to American blacks. After spending much time biking across Africa this American black man came to the conclusion he had far more in common with Americans of other races than he did those of his own race who were in Africa. Interesting story to read if you get the chance.

Are we to believe that a white choir clapping on 2 and 4 is good or evil compared to the black choir clapping on 1 and 3?

This sort of thing reminds me of the church in Chicago some years ago declaring that candles are evil because the devil and demons reside in the flames because of candles connection to the occult! They said any time a Christian lights a candle in their home they have just invited devils in and they arrive in the candles flame.

[Gorship]

The beat thing reminded me of a time when our associate pastor was still in college and he was the head of the student Baptist group. They were putting together a program and as he was trying to help get the music portion ready and practiced there was a problem. Whites would clap on the 2nd and 4th beat while blacks would clap on the 1st and 3rd. That created some difficulty in them singing together and trying to get their newly formed choir to be all sing and clap to the same beat, as it were.

From what I've read, this is unique to American blacks. A black man who visited Africa reported black Africans have no rhythm at all as he compared it to American blacks. After spending much time biking across Africa this American black man came to the conclusion he had far more in common with Americans of other races than he did those of his own race who were in Africa. Interesting story to read if you get the chance.

Are we to believe that a white choir clapping on 2 and 4 is good or evil compared to the black choir clapping on 1 and 3?

This sort of thing reminds me of the church in Chicago some years ago declaring that candles are evil because the devil and demons reside in the flames because of candles connection to the occult! They said any time a Christian lights a candle in their home they have just invited devils in and they arrive in the candles flame.

brings a whole new meaning to "this little light of mine... "

[MountainChristian]

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

 

[heartstrings]

My position? I usually end up right behind the microphone. When my Wife chooses the songs, she puts me in lead and makes me look like the "ham". But most times I would rather be off to the side singing harmony.

This is the song we were doing when that shot was taken....

[Musician4God1611]

I will make my stand on this very short because honestly, the ones who have stood opposite of me, don't really care to hear what I have to say, they simply want to push their agenda. Music is, perhaps, on of the most powerful tools available to a natural man. It has the power to shape nations. Plato said, Let me write the songs of a nation, and I care not who writes its laws. Furthermore, to argue that a certain verse does not specifically mention music and is therefore invalid is a gross misappropriation of the very nature of music. Music teaches principle, and therefore, any verse that teaches the principles we are to have in our life, applies to music. And finally, anyone who does not think that the music itself can carry a message or naturally induce feelings, is numb to their own feelings and emotions, is in denial, or is just lying.

[Musician4God1611]

You know, Mike, I always cringe when I see someone put up a post on music because It's the one subject everyone is "settled" on. Which basically means no one will listen to anyone.

[Ukulelemike]

Jordan, maybe when you 'changed your opinion' the first time, you DID hear from God. (your starting off on a poor foot to convince me of anything at this point, do you feel superior to me in some way? you go on to say that we are all sinners, perhaps you forget this too? why put "Changed your opinion" in quotations at all, what are you appealing to? emotion? perhaps I did, perhaps I didn't, this isnt for you to decide nor can you.) {I concede here, in that I did, in fact, misquote you, and for that I apologize. My error. But my overall point is still valid. I 'heard from God' of the worldliness of CCM, and the need to remove it from my life. That, by the way, was well before I had any training in knowing the difference, before being in any church that taught it, as it was still a new thing. It was nothing but my desire to please God in all ways.}  Maybe you have just decided to go back to feeding your flesh? You say you don't want to hear 'opinions' from 'fallen men' or opinionated pastors. However, you, yourself, are a fallen man, saved by grace, yes, but still fallen. And some of those 'opinionated pastors' have done extensive study on the subject both of CCM and its effects on churches (Study sure, extensive? ehh,  the things Ive read in "becareful little ears" or "why i left the ccm movement"  {written by a former CCM worship leader who, himself, witnessed from the inside the worldliness and carnality involved, and so left it, so again ignoring the wisdom of experience; "In the multitude of counsellors there is safety" (Prov 11:14)  } were completely nonsensical, eg: a beat on a 2nd and 4th compared to a 1st and 3rd doesnt all of a sudden make it evil... It just doesnt that is beyond superstitious)., as well as just on the subject of music. Where is your area of expertise? (I build Docks, fix computers internal and external, do CAD Design with Solidworks; peter was a fisherman, he must therefore have no expertise about Jesus....oh wait are we talking about things we've studied then! because remember, occupation doesn't make you an expert in something. Sure I have studied the Bible and Music, I rotate my view and playlist frequently as a try and hone in on what I feel is a Biblical view.{I don't generally try to 'feel' what a biblical world-view is-I find study of the Bible to give me a good enough direction for that. But if its feeling you prefer to use, I understand your defense of rock music.}) As for the quotations, these are the very men and women who invented and played rock and roll, and includes all their intentions and experiences with the music style, so they are kind of subject matter experts Erp hold up, who invented sound? who gave ideas for instruments...?  {A"nd his brother's name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ." Gen 4:21-seems like the first musicians were the children of Cain-just sayin'.} how we use them becomes the critical question, tone and feel and subjective. as well. But Jordan like rock, so its okay, ignore everyone, all warnings, everything, because its just a bunch of opinions. You have a poor attitude, I'm not sure if your trying to be demeaning or just plain rude? This is basically just sarcastic ad hominem... sad for an old time preacher. You speak to other people this way or just online? {My sarcasm aside, (I apologize), again, my point is sound. You have really no care, it seems for what anyone says on the subject-you ignore any possibility of finding direction from scripture, or experience from those who actually write and perform the music, or the fruit of it, which is, just CCM, a false unity with ungodly organizations like the Catholic church, and a severe lack of discernment. This is the goal of many of the CCM performers-to break down walls of separation, which walls are there for our good, and at the command of God.} 

So since the Bible doesn't say, chapter and verse, don't smoke cigarettes, I assume you're okay with it. And since it doesn't say don't watch internet porn, I guess you're good with that. And since it doesn't tell us not to drive your car above the speed limit, you have no issue there?  Now, here's the thing, my guess is, that because the Bible DOES say things which can be applied to these, you will of course say its comparing apples to oranges, or some such. The Bible says the body is the temple of the Spirit, so of course, since smoking is damaging to that temple, we know its wrong. And since the Bible says not to lust, we know internet porn is out. And since we are to obey the laws of men, as long as they don't disagree with God's word, well, then speeding is clearly wrong.   And yet, you can't seem to make that jump that rock music is clearly worldly in its styles, that the STYLE is admittedly intended to incite violence, rebellion, disobedience and many other wicked responses, and as such, to combine the message of God with the message of worldly music styles is to break the commands of separation? As you said, discernment is key. Please See: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23620-what-is-your-position-on-music-and-why/?do=findComment&comment=409456  as HoS already dismantled this nonsense. {Actually, no, all he did was essentially what you are doing here-its about what he, and you, like and prefer. I notice also that he quotes a scripture, like so many, completely out of context, from 2Sam 16:7 "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outwardappearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." This had everything to do with Samuel choosing who would be king, nothing having to do with how one judges a person. I don't judge just by looks, but by fruit. Remember, we can't SEE the heart, GOD can, we can't. We see the fruit. 2Cor 10:7 is dealing with how the Corinthian church was judging Paul, because he was a small man with a weak voice, not because he had long spiked hair and was wearing makeup or tattoos. So, no HoS didn't dismantle anything, he just gave his opinion. he also stated that since smoking isn't specifically mentioned in the Bible, its okay. Sir, that's lack of discernment. But shall I assume you agree with him there, too?}

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." (2Cor 6:14-18)

Good verse, poor exegesis. Why were oxen yolked together? to commit a task, so if you had a short one and a tall one, they couldnt do it, if one was tied one way and the other backwards, they would go in a circle. Im not advocating Christian Musicians sign up with non christians and try and play gospel music, I would rather see the entire genre reclaimed for Gods glory.  {Reclaim? It can't be reclaimed because it was never of God in the first place.  It is the mixing of clearly ungodly music, with clearly ungodly fruit, long before it ever had the name of Jesus attached to it. Drugs, alcohol, violence, rebellion, Satanism, new age thought and imagery, were ALL part of rock music before it was ever used once to 'glorify' God. The genre was never His, it was the devil's.}

The CCM musicians themselves ignore these commands, because their recording labels are the exact same ones that record secular rock artists. n..not true... there are plenty of Christian run labels (Facedown records, {Metalcore, post-hardcore, Christian metal, Christian hardcore, Christian punk, hardcore punk, (THESE are Christian?) including secular band, not just Christian} solidstate records, {also mostly 'metal' bands, AND secular bands, as well}  soundmass {again, metal ,} ) furthermore crowd funding allows artists to bypass the label all together. FURTHER TO THAT if an artist wanted to truly be separate from a secular label (now your verse is starting to apply as this would make them yolked for a same purpose) they could just not go with the label and stay small.  They emulate the secular world with their own awards program, the Dove Awards, so they can have their little gold statue on the mantle, just like Brittany Spears or Metallica. They wear long hair and sport tattoos and look for all the world, no different than lost secular artists. Not all artists have tattoos or long hair, some do, perhaps you should start a ministry helping disciple them while they try and reach the dark corners of society. Ive always thought that would be a great ministry as im sure its spiritually tiring. They imitate them in virtually every way, to the point of watering down the message to have legitimacy, and maybe do some cross-over work, like POD or Amy Grant. They intentionally conform to the world. Odds are they dont consider it worldly, mistaken perhaps, who knows. good thing God looks on the inside.

It IS a good thing God looks on the inside. However, we are sent BY God, TO the lost world, and they cannot look at the heart, but the outside. What are we offering them? They hear music with the name of Jesus in it (sometimes), and often a vaguely Christian message, but they are SEEING what looks just the same as they already have-a worldly look, clothes, music sounds and styles, hair, decorations, all conforming to where they already are in their lost condition. It is MAN we are sent to, and MAN needs to SEE something different, as well as a different message. And they need to hear a CLEAR message. Most CCM is so spiritually bereft its useless.  It has to be made to have wide appeal, so more will listen, more will buy, so essentials, the fact that one is a wicked, hell-bound sinner just doesn't fly well in getting fans and buyers.

And again, there is the continually joining hands with Catholics and Pentecostals and just anyone who will join together. Ecclesiastical separation  is a biblical command, to mark those who teach things different to the doctrines of Christ, and avoid them. Yet many here don't care WHO they are onstage with. Now, I get it, if they are a bunch of Catholics, they need to hear the truth-got it. Great opportunity to preach the truth. Except they don't. they don't warn about the dangers of the false doctrine being taught by others present, and give a clear gospel, and it is by the foolishness of the preaching of the cross of Christ by which men are saved, not music, not a snappy tune.

Now I gotta get off. Will try to complete later.

Edited July 29, 2015 by Ukulelemike

[Gorship]

You have really no care, it seems for what anyone says on the subject-you ignore any possibility of finding direction from scripture, or experience from those who actually write and perform the music, or the fruit of it, which is, just CCM, a false unity with ungodly organizations like the Catholic church, and a severe lack of discernment. This is the goal of many of the CCM performers-to break down walls of separation, which walls are there for our good, and at the command of God.

If I didnt care, I wouldnt have replied to your comment. I find your arguments non convincing, according to you (it would appear) its cause you feel im spiritually immature and a weak christian. 

As for the record labels, yes, metal music. I find Metal a whole lot more soothing when I've a rough day vs bluegrass or a 4 man acapella group. I get nothing out of those things.

but this:

"

3. Count It Blessing

When I see the wicked

gain the upper hand

When the righteous fall

and are persecuted

And the children beg

for water and shelter

And it feels like

all the walls are caving in

 

Rejoice! In the storm

Rejoice! It will soon pass!

 

And when nothing is quite right

and I cant see Your light

I count it blessing

And when everything falls in place

And I can feel Your grace

I count it blessing

 

Consider it pure joy when you face these trials

knowing that it produces perseverance

 

And when nothing is quite right

and I cant see Your light

I count it blessing

And when everything falls in place

And I can feel Your grace

I count it blessing."

Gives me comfort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zat9YhL2Naw

(posted youtube link for it, I get you'll hate it)

dont have time to get through the rest, I dont submit to scholars, nor man, but God. so again, the tempo arguments or what have you, i find useless and weak. Petra for example has shown what they can do in ministry using rock music, you may dislike it but it doesnt make it less of a ministry.