Replacement

[Alan]

No Nicolaitans,

Thank you very much my dear brother for bringing our this very obvious fact that Paul still called the non-Jewish brethren Gentiles. If our Replacement Theology brethren would simply read, and believe, the Bible as it is written this discussion would not even take place.

[Salyan]

Paul also called them 'the church of God' and distinguished such from either Jews or Gentiles.

Oops, okay now...

 

I've attended community/evangelical, pentecostal (old-style, not crazy charismatic) and IFB churches in central AB. I do not believe that the evangelical or pentecostal churches I attended believed replacement theology, but there was really nothing said on the issue at all. The IFB churches in my circle do not believe in replacement theology and my pastor actively preaches against it.

[Genevanpreacher]

No Nicolaitans,

Thank you very much my dear brother for bringing our this very obvious fact that Paul still called the non-Jewish brethren Gentiles. If our Replacement Theology brethren would simply read, and believe, the Bible as it is written this discussion would not even take place.

​It keeps being said and I think no one is listening sometimes - we don't believe Israel was replaced at all, we believe as Paul said - 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

 

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

 

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

 

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

 

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

 

1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. 

 

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but ratherthrough their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

 

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is just a small example, but, come on, we don't replace Israel, we integrated with believing Israel  by faith in our Savior Jesus Christ the Son of the living God. 

Edited June 9, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brother Day,

The engagement of this posting is not for the sake of contending (in contrast to most of our other engagements of late), but for the sake of understanding your position on this matter.

Would you agree that in the time of the Old Testament, the Lord God dealt with the children of Israel as a national body?

If you would agree to the above, then does the Lord God still deal with the children of Israel as a national body in this time of the New Testament?

If you would answer negatively to the above question (which I think would be your position), then according to your position upon what body of people is the Lord God now centering His dealings of promise and blessing?

Also, according to your position will the Lord God ever return back sometime in the future to dealing with the children of Israel as a national body?

[Covenanter]

Brother Day,

The engagement of this posting is not for the sake of contending (in contrast to most of our other engagements of late), but for the sake of understanding your position on this matter.

Understood.

Would you agree that in the time of the Old Testament, the Lord God dealt with the children of Israel as a national body?

Yes & No! Being God's holy nation was conditional on obedience to the covenant. Exo. 19:6 There are 7 references to Israel as a nation. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=nation*+israel&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1 

Exo. 19:6  Psa. 83:4  Isa. 1:4  Isa. 49:7  Jer. 31:36  Eze. 2:3  Eze. 37:22 

These are either a covenant promise, or condemnation.

There are about 270 references to Israel as a people, people of God, my people. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=nation*+israel&t=KJV#s=s_primary_0_1 

 While the nation of Israel certainly existed in OT times, God was concerned with his people, believers with a living faith in their God. As a nation they so often disobeyed God, & were judged, but throughout, God had a believing remnant. 7,000 in the time of Elijah. Nationhood was largely irrelevant in OT times. Sometimes godly kings, priests & prophets led the people, even as a nation. Nationhood could be forfeited. God always kept his people. 

It was more than 400 years after God made his nation promise to Abram, after their deliverance from Egypt,  that Israel became a nation & possessed the promised land. 

Joshua could claim that God had fulfilled his promises in his lifetime. Jos. 23:14 but read on.  

  If you would agree to the above, then does the Lord God still deal with the children of Israel as a national body in this time of the New Testament?

Yes & No. Jesus ministered to the nation, even die(d) for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.  John 11:49-52. Those who received him, & believed the Apostolic Gospel became children of God. They believed in Jesus as Lord & formed the church. Acts 2. Peter showed they had a stark choice of hearing & believing Jesus as Messiah, the Prophet, or being destroyed. Acts 3:22-26. Messiah was confirming the covenant promises made with the fathers. Those who believed formed the promised holy nation. 1 Peter 2:9 Exo. 19:6   

If you would answer negatively to the above question (which I think would be your position), then according to your position upon what body of people is the Lord God now centering His dealings of promise and blessing?

Believers in Jesus Christ as Saviour, Lord, Christ & God of all nations/kindreds/families of the earth, referred to variously as the church, the body of Christ, Abraham's seed, heirs according to the promise, the whole family in heaven & earth,  etc. These are found in churches scattered around the world.  

Also, according to your position will the Lord God ever return back sometime in the future to dealing with the children of Israel as a national body?

Not as a national body, but that does not preclude a great revival among those who call themselves Jews, or even Israelis. But if they want the promised covenant blessings as the redeemed people of God, they must repent of their sin & turn to God through the Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 2, Acts 4,  Acts 26:19-23 I do not think there is any prophetic significance to the present state of Israel. Missions to Jews should be supported & encouraged. 

Who is "all Israel?" 60 generations of unbelievers, or 60 generations of Jewish believers in Jesus whose identity as Jews has been absorbed into the great company of the redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Rev. 5:9-10.

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Who is "all Israel?" 60 generations of unbelievers, or 60 generations of Jewish believers in Jesus whose identity as Jews has been absorbed into the great company of the redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Rev. 5:9-10.

​Brother Day,

Another question for the sake of understanding, not contending, if I may.

In your position, are you defining the word "Israel" (when referring to the people, not to the individual Jacob himself) as only including and encompassing believing Israelites?

Edited June 11, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Genevanpreacher]

 

Would you agree that in the time of the Old Testament, the Lord God dealt with the children of Israel as a national body?

​He dealt with them as a corporate body, but only 'used' the real believers as a blessing to those around them.

Who did he destroy in the wilderness? Those who did not believe.

God's people have always been the believers.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

​He dealt with them as a corporate body, but only 'used' the real believers as a blessing to those around them.

Who did he destroy in the wilderness? Those who did not believe.

God's people have always been the believers.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

​Indeed, that first generation of the children of Israel after the deliverance from Egypt died throughout the forty years of wilderness wandering (except Joshua and Caleb) because of their unbelief in the Lord God's promise to fight for them against and grant them victory over the forces of the Canaanites.  However, I would ask a couple of questions:

1.  How many of that generation of the children of Israel were "unbelievers" (using the word, not in relation to the moment-by-moment practice of believing, but in relation to the eternal condition of being a "believer," one who is eternally saved through faith)?

2.  How many of that generation of the children of Israel were redeemed by the Lord God through faith in the Lord God's promise of deliverance in and through the shed blood of the Passover lamb?

[Genevanpreacher]

Sorry John, I know this kind of digresses from your OP...

One thing that is often over-looked by those who hold to Replacement Theology is this one simple fact...if the church has replaced Israel, and we are now Israel...why does Paul (in his epistles) still refer to the believers to whom he's writing as...Gentiles? Many of the verses (used as proof arguments) put forth by RT proponents are later followed by this one fact...Paul still refers to them as Gentiles.

When comparing Jews to gentiles. A gentile is anyone who is not a Jew. Jews are only part of the whole nation of Israel. So anyone of the northern tribes of Israel were not Jews, but Hebrews. Hence Hebrews when compared to Jews are gentiles, because they are not Jews. All Jews (bloodline) are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are Jews. And in the scriptures Jews can be termed as Israelites, but the Northern 10 tribe Nation of Israel called Samaria, were never termed Jews. So not all Israel are Jews, except by modern teachers.

[Salyan]

When comparing Jews to gentiles. A gentile is anyone who is not a Jew. Jews are only part of the whole nation of Israel. So anyone of the northern tribes of Israel were not Jews, but Hebrews. Hence Hebrews when compared to Jews are gentiles, because they are not Jews. All Jews (bloodline) are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are Jews. And in the scriptures Jews can be termed as Israelites, but the Northern 10 tribe Nation of Israel called Samaria, were never termed Jews. So not all Israel are Jews, except by modern teachers.

What? No. According to my memory, Samaria was a city in Northern Israel, but the country was still called Israel. The only people called Samaritans were the later inhabits of Samaria who were descended from outside peoples resettled in the area, combined with some Jewish blood.  The descendents of Jacob that left Egypt were called the Hebrews - thus all descended peoples of Israel may be called Hebrews. 'Jew' is a term that etymologically is descended from the name of Judah, but it is in common usage as a lump description of all the Israelites (i.e. descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). Thus, 'Hebrew' and 'Jew' can be and should be used interchangeably. Perhaps the most definitive argument in this is that the Jewish people themselves nowadays choose to refer to themselves as Jews.

In Romans, Paul speaks of those who were part of the covenant by circumcision, and refers to them as Jews. The Gentiles are the uncircumcised. The Passover is referred to in John as being the 'Jew's passover'; Passover occurred once for the nation, and was not split by geographic origin. There is nothing Biblically to suggest that the word 'Jew' refers only to the southern tribes. In the Book of Esther, were the only Jews in danger those from the southern kingdom? I highly doubt their neighbors would have considered such an etymological distinction. The circumcised descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - the Israelites, or Hebrews - are Jews. Anyone else is a Gentile. Not sure why you find it necessary to redefine these commonly accepted terms, but such redefinition can only bring confusion.

 

[No Nicolaitans]

When comparing Jews to gentiles. A gentile is anyone who is not a Jew. Jews are only part of the whole nation of Israel. So anyone of the northern tribes of Israel were not Jews, but Hebrews. Hence Hebrews when compared to Jews are gentiles, because they are not Jews. All Jews (bloodline) are Hebrews, but not all Hebrews are Jews. And in the scriptures Jews can be termed as Israelites, but the Northern 10 tribe Nation of Israel called Samaria, were never termed Jews. So not all Israel are Jews, except by modern teachers.

​I'm sorry Genevan, but I don't see the correlation with what I said above. Here...this is one portion of scripture used by Replacement Theologists to "prove" their view...

Ephesians 2:11-22
11   Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12   That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13   But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14   For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15   Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16   And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17   And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18   For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19   Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20   And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21   In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22   In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

The whole section is used, but I underlined pertinent "proof texts". See, we were "once" Gentiles, but now we are one in Christ. This portion of scripture (used in conjunction with other scriptures) is used to prove that the church is now Israel. However, do you see what I highlighted in yellow? During all of this "proof", Paul still refers to "we both". He is still making a distinction between Gentiles and Jews.

Now, look what Paul says in the very next chapter...in fact...in the very next verse.

Ephesians 3:1
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

Then here's another "proof text" for the Replacement Theologists...

Ephesians 3:6
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

RTs say, "See, we are fellowheirs, and of the same body and partakers of his promise(s) given to Israel. That's not what it says. It says that we GENTILES are of the same body, and partakers of his promise IN Christ BY the gospel. The promise IN Christ is justification by faith BY the gospel. We are fellowheirs of justification by faith. We are of the same body. Paul uses the body as an example in other scriptures. The eye isn't the ear. The hand isn't the eye...etc. A body is made of DIFFERENT parts, but the parts together make a body. The body of Christ is made of different parts (Jew and Gentile), but it is one body.

Later, we see this...

Ephesians 4:17
This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

Paul is still saying they are Gentiles. Telling them (ye) not to walk as other Gentiles. He's saying, you Gentiles are to no longer walk as other Gentiles...

And let's not forget the verses in Romans that are used by RTs to "prove" the church is Israel. Look what comes later in Romans when Paul is addressing that church...

Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

See, it even says that Paul is the apostle of the...Gentiles. He didn't say that he was the apostle of Israel. He was very specific...Gentiles.

Friend, the church isn't Israel. Israel is part of the church, and Gentiles are part of the church. One body; different members.

 

 

 

[Genevanpreacher]

​I'm sorry Genevan, but I don't see the correlation with what I said above. 

My point was to show that just because one is called a Jew, its not necessarily talking about all Israel. And as for Samaria being the area for the northen tribes, the scriptures and any bible map will show that Samaria was the capitol of the House of Israel i.e. the Northern Tribes of the House of Israel as compared to Jerusalem being the capitol of the House of Judah after the division of the two kingdoms. And that was before Israel, the northern 10 tribes, were cast out of their land and replaced by others who never followed the Lord with all their heart, but mixed him with their gods. The 10 tribes became gentiles. Hence gentile Israelites compared to circumcised Israelites, we know as Jews. Our modern times have forced most Christians into a mode of thinking anyone calling themselves a Jew makes up Israel as a nation, but there were quite a few more tribes that left the land than stayed or returned to the land. The only tribes in Nebuchadnezzars land in the captivity were Judah, Benjamin, and some of Levi. None others are mentioned in Esther or Daniel. And no others were mentioned in the return to rebuild Jerusalem after the 70 years were accomplished.Thats because the Northern Tribes were already gone. God says he divorced them and cast them out because of their whoredoms. Then he did the same to Israels sister Judah.

[No Nicolaitans]

And as for Samaria being the area for the northen tribes, the scriptures and any bible map will show that Samaria was the capitol of the House of Israel i.e. the Northern Tribes of the House of Israel as compared to Jerusalem being the capitol of the House of Judah after the division of the two kingdoms.

​Yeah, I think it was Omri (maybe...not sure) that bought a hill and named it Samaria. So, I'll agree with that with what memory I have at the moment. I don't put much faith in the accuracy of Bible maps though. Not saying they're not right in some places, but they're not scripture.

The only tribes in Nebuchadnezzars land in the captivity were Judah, Benjamin, and some of Levi.

​That's because the northern tribes had already been ousted by the Assyrians.

God says he divorced them and cast them out because of their whoredoms. Then he did the same to Israels sister Judah.

​This is the first I've ever heard of the northern tribes becoming Gentiles. If they are no longer Jews or Israelites (if you prefer), then how do we explain this?

Ezekiel 37:15-28
15   The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16   Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17   And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18   And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19   Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20   And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21   And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22   And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23   Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24   And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25   And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26   Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27   My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28   And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

 

This hasn't happened yet, and I don't mean this to sound like I'm being a smart-aleck, but what is God going to do here...re-Jew the Jews or re-Israelite the Israelites?

 

 

[Genevanpreacher]

2 Kings 17:1 - In the twelfth year of Ahaz king of Judah began Hoshea the son of Elah to reign in Samaria over Israel nine years. 

 

2 Kings 18:9 And it came to pass in the fourth year of king Hezekiah, which was the seventh year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, that Shalmaneser king of Assyria came up against Samaria, and besieged it.

10 And at the end of three years they took it: even in the sixth year of Hezekiah, that is the ninth year of Hoshea king of Israel, Samaria was taken.

11 And the king of Assyria did carry away Israel unto Assyria, and put them in Halah and in Habor by the river of Gozan, and in the cities of the Medes:

12 Because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD their God, but transgressed his covenant, and all that Moses the servant of the LORD commanded, and would not hear them, nor do them.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Genevanpreacher

[No Nicolaitans]

I don't get what you're trying to relay. I already said that I agreed about Samaria. Are you are using 2 Kings 18:12 to show that they became Gentiles? Did those carried away by Nebuchadnezzar become Gentiles too? Did Daniel become a Gentile? Did Jeremiah become a Gentile?