Revelation chapter 19-22 Study.

[John81]

​

John 81,

The tread has not deteriorated on my account. I have been civil and understanding on our differences.

 

Since the last few days, I have been called a traitor by Pilgram and Covenanter agreed. Covenanter called my country, the United States of America, a Facist Country, and you pretty well agreed. Covenante wrote he did not like my 'tone,' and you call me uncivil! Ah, come on now! You got to be kidding me!  Are both of you serious! If you are, both of you are being hypocritical.

 

Then, Coventanter said this: "I too reject private interpretation. One reason for the difference in our understanding is the Altantic Ocean, & the influence of Scofield on the American Bible colleges. As a result dispensationalism has become orthodoxy, rather than Covenant theology. "

 

Covenanter directly implied that my reaching was, '...pirvate interpretation..' thorughout this study he says that the teaching of the literal events of Revelations is a 'private teaching.' And, even though I have not quoted Scofield one time in this study he says that the influence of Scofied has resulted in the 'American Bible colleges," being 'unorthodox' and his teaching 'orthodox.' 

 

Covenanter  has never had the Christian courtesy to ask if I have been to Bible College, and if I have, where I have been to Bible College and If I follow Scofield's teaching. I have not even quoted from Scofield! Porbably after this post he will probably. Then, he, or somebody else that does agree with me, will probably find something bad about the College (if I did go to Bible College in America).

 

You, Covenanter and Pilgram blame me for non-existant problems: such as lack of civility, and other un-Christian attributes in an effort to downgrade my teaching. The slander that I have first received by you brethren is not only uncalled for, extememly un-Christian, and I think, done deliberately to berate me for my biblical teaching and patriotic beliefs.

 

The teaching of the fulfillment of the prophetic events are fulfilled literaly in the book of Revelation. To believe in, 'Preterist,' or  'Replacement Theology,' or  'Covenant theology,' and other figurative, allegrocal, or fantacial beliefs is a dis-belief in the scriptures, the very words of the Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul the Apostle. Because of my teaching I am being slandered, lied at, and maligned. If you do not agree with me then ask me specific questions and not malign  my character.

 

And you call me uncivil. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" Isaiah 5:20 That, my friend is what is happening to me due to my Patriotic stand and the literal interpretation of the Prophets and the Book of Revelation.

​For some reason you are seriously misreading some posts.

Pilgrim pointed out that you seem to have insinuated I was a traitor by your Russian agent comment. Pilgrim never called you a traitor, nor did I or anyone else. Salyan well address that too.

If you believe my post about the tone of the thread applied to you rather than being a general comment, I can't help that because I didn't mention you at all. In fact, I didn't mention anyone.

I don't recall Covenanter saying America is fascist (not saying that might not be in a post in some thread, but if so, I missed it) and I know I never said that nor have I ever accused you of being fascist or anything else.

As to the contents of the discussion here on the actual topic, I've not become involved nor have I sided with anyone or any view in postings in this thread. I did make a post letting those here know I was reading the postings, considering what's being put forth and looking to Scripture on my own time.

Alan, I'm not your enemy, nor an enemy of anyone here. Please stop reading things into postings that aren't there. If I have something to say to someone I try to say it plainly. The last time I plainly said something to you was with regards to you misreading my postings and I simply pointed out your misunderstanding. Your response was to call me a liar and insinuate I'm an enemy agent (which is why Pilgrim questioned you calling me a traitor; he never called you one). Please read our posts carefully and you will see we are not attacking you.

 

[Alan]

Revelation 19:17-21, “The Fulfillment of Prophecy at the Battle of Armageddon.”

Special Note:

“And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

Revelation 16:16

Verse 17, And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

Verse 18, That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond,  both small and great.

Verse 19, And I saw the beast, and kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Verse 20, and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Verse 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

We see the fulfillment of Ezekiel 39:1-7, 17-29, Isaiah 34:1-8 and Zechariah 14:1-3 in this battle. Let us take note of a couple of prophesies in this section. Ezekiel 39:17, “And, thou son of man, thy saith the LORD GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.”

Please take careful note. “... upon the mountains of Israel...” the Tribulation period is primarily the time s of Jacob’s Trouble to bring Israel back to the land of Israel. Why did God cause the Tribulation period? Why is the Lord Jesus leading this great army of saints to overcome the heathen (Ezekiel 39:23 & 28)?

“Therefore thus saith the LORD God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;” ... “Then shall they [Israel] know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.” Ezekiel 39: 25 & 28

The events of the Tribulation Period, Revelation chapter 6 through 18, is primarily to fulfill the promises given to the nation of Israel. To bring the chosen sons of Jacob, the elect of the children of Israel, restored back to the land of Israel.

The prophecy of Amos 3:9-17 is also fulfilled at this time. The events of Revelation chapter 6-18 has nothing to do with the church of the redeemed as the church was taken out of the Tribulation period, secretly, as a thief, in Revelation 4:1. That is why the true church is not mentioned at all.

Verse 19 and 20 The End of the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Deceived who took the Mark of the Beast.

The prophet Joel prophesied of this time in Joel 2:11, “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Nobody can, ‘abide it.” The armies of the Beast are destroyed and the Beast and the False Prophet are taken bodily and cast, ‘alive,’ into the ‘lake of fire.’ Hell, the lake of fire, is literal and eternal. The end result of those taking the mark of the Beast is eternity in hell.

The Beast deceived the whole world through his lies, Revelation 12:9.

The False Prophet deceived the world through his ‘charismatic miracles,’ and religious doctrine: lies. All religious falsehood are lies. The Great Whore, Revelation 17:5, the Roman Catholic Church and all other false religious denominations allied with her, is, as we speak, deceiving the earth through religious lies. False churches use false bibles, to teach false doctrine in order to deceive. False, or miss-guided, brethren teach erroneous doctrine through the improperly dividing of scripture, or twisting the scripture, in order to deceive.

The end result of the False Prophet, False teachers, and people: who are in a false church, and who have a false belief in the Lord Jesus, is eternity in  the lake of fire. Pease study 1 Timothy 1:18-20, 4:1, 2 and 16 Remember Balaam? Korah? Cain? Numbers, Jude 11, and Genesis 3:1-17

Verse 21 The Feast of the Fowls.

Please re-read Ezekiel chapter 39 as previously mentioned.

This is also the fulfillment of the prophetic words of the Lord Jesus that He spoke in Matthew 24:28, “For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” The carcasses’ of the armies of the Beast and the False Prophet are where the eagles are going to gather as spoken by the Lord Jesus.

The companion passage of this prophecy is recorded in Luke 17:37, “And they answered and said unto him, Where, LORD? And he said unto them, wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The prophecy of the Lord Jesus is fulfilled in, ‘the Feast of the Fowls.”

[Alan]

Brethren

In order to keep this thread as civil, polite, and a good Christian attitude, I would like have any discussion revolve only around the particular verses involved. In this case, Revelation 19:17-21. It is my intention to create an atmosphere of simply studying the scripures as they speak without getting involved with personalities, side issues, etc... I will try and only answers those questions I feel are appropriate and stay away from 'baited,' and 'argumentive,' or 'side issue,' questions. Due to the complexity of prophecies and number of prophesies involved , I know I cannot bring out all of the apporpriate passages. If there are any passages that I neglect to mention please let all of us know and we will comment on them. Thank you for your spirit of cooperation. May we again renew outselves to a more deep understanding and love for the word of God.

Alan

[John81]

Brethren

In order to keep this thread as civil, polite, and a good Christian attitude, I would like have any discussion revolve only around the particular verses involved. In this case, Revelation 19:17-21. It is my intention to create an atmosphere of simply studying the scripures as they speak without getting involved with personalities, side issues, etc... I will try and only answers those questions I feel are appropriate and stay away from 'baited,' and 'argumentive,' or 'side issue,' questions. Due to the complexity of prophecies and number of prophesies involved , I know I cannot bring out all of the apporpriate passages. If there are any passages that I neglect to mention please let all of us know and we will comment on them. Thank you for your spirit of cooperation. May we again renew outselves to a more deep understanding and love for the word of God.

Alan

​Thank you. I've been getting a much better understanding of the basis of some differing views in this area as well as clearer direction in my personal studies in this thread than in previous threads on this topic. Keeping focus and limiting the discussion to aspects concerning the specific verses under observation is beneficial and much appreciated.

[Covenanter]

Comments in blue. @BroMatt it would be helpful in a post like this to have the formatting options on display. 

Revelation 19:17-21, “The Fulfillment of Prophecy at the Battle of Armageddon.”

Special Note:

“And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”

Revelation 16:16

Verse 17, And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God.

Verse 18, That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond,  both small and great.

Verse 19, And I saw the beast, and kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Verse 20, and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Verse 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

We see the fulfillment of Ezekiel 39:1-7, 17-29, Isaiah 34:1-8 and Zechariah 14:1-3 in this battle. Let us take note of a couple of prophesies in this section. Ezekiel 39:17, “And, thou son of man, thy saith the LORD GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.”

The Gog-Magog prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is explicitly restated after the "millennium" indicating that the Satan-led nations will gather against Christ at the end of time before they are utterly destroyed by fire from heaven. The battles employ weapons of the time, to be used as firewood. Eze. 39:9-10 Now, I do not expect the Bible prophets to describe modern warfare & weapons, but we do need to understand what the prophets are describing if the prophecies are applicable to us & our times. I consider it to be symbolic of God's final judgement of the wicked, the beasts, false prophets & those who follow them. I do not anticipate a physical battle of the demonic armies against Christ in person. God the Son fight with the sword of his mouth - his word. A word is all he needs. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat. 25:41    

Please take careful note. “... upon the mountains of Israel...” the Tribulation period is primarily the time s of Jacob’s Trouble to bring Israel back to the land of Israel. Why did God cause the Tribulation period? Why is the Lord Jesus leading this great army of saints to overcome the heathen (Ezekiel 39:23 & 28)?

“Therefore thus saith the LORD God; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;” ... “Then shall they [Israel] know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.” Ezekiel 39: 25 & 28

The events of the Tribulation Period, Revelation chapter 6 through 18, is primarily to fulfill the promises given to the nation of Israel. To bring the chosen sons of Jacob, the elect of the children of Israel, restored back to the land of Israel.

The prophecy of Amos 3:9-17 is also fulfilled at this time. The events of Revelation chapter 6-18 has nothing to do with the church of the redeemed as the church was taken out of the Tribulation period, secretly, as a thief, in Revelation 4:1. That is why the true church is not mentioned at all.

Verse 19 and 20 The End of the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Deceived who took the Mark of the Beast.

The prophet Joel prophesied of this time in Joel 2:11, “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

The prophecy of Joel taken literally, is about a plague of locusts, with the effects of a great swarm of locusts being described - darkening the sun, moon & stars, & devouring everything green. Joel 1 & 2 describe that plague in terms of an invading army. Yet that plague will end with repentance & restoration. Joel 2:12-27    

That was the common experience of the people of Israel throughout their history. Turning away from God, suffering various judgements, repenting & restoration. Joel 2:28-32 is the wonderful promise of Pentecost. The sun was indeed turned to darkness at Calvary a few weeks before.

The plague of locusts is seen again in Rev. 9 when the fifth trumpet sounds. This is a demonic plague.   

Nobody can, ‘abide it.” The armies of the Beast are destroyed and the Beast and the False Prophet are taken bodily and cast, ‘alive,’ into the ‘lake of fire.’ Hell, the lake of fire, is literal and eternal. The end result of those taking the mark of the Beast is eternity in hell.

The Beast deceived the whole world through his lies, Revelation 12:9.

The False Prophet deceived the world through his ‘charismatic miracles,’ and religious doctrine: lies. All religious falsehood are lies. The Great Whore, Revelation 17:5, the Roman Catholic Church and all other false religious denominations allied with her, is, as we speak, deceiving the earth through religious lies. False churches use false bibles, to teach false doctrine in order to deceive. False, or miss-guided, brethren teach erroneous doctrine through the improperly dividing of scripture, or twisting the scripture, in order to deceive.

The end result of the False Prophet, False teachers, and people: who are in a false church, and who have a false belief in the Lord Jesus, is eternity in  the lake of fire. Pease study 1 Timothy 1:18-20, 4:1, 2 and 16 Remember Balaam? Korah? Cain? Numbers, Jude 11, and Genesis 3:1-17 

I'm in general agreement. I believe, however, that the immediate context of Revelation is the destruction of Jerusalem, whose mantle of opposition to Christ & his church was taken up by Rome. What applied at the time of writing applies down the centuries to this day. 

Verse 21 The Feast of the Fowls.

Please re-read Ezekiel chapter 39 as previously mentioned.  Yes.

This is also the fulfillment of the prophetic words of the Lord Jesus that He spoke in Matthew 24:28, “For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” The carcasses’ of the armies of the Beast and the False Prophet are where the eagles are going to gather as spoken by the Lord Jesus.

The companion passage of this prophecy is recorded in Luke 17:37, “And they answered and said unto him, Where, LORD? And he said unto them, wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.” The prophecy of the Lord Jesus is fulfilled in, ‘the Feast of the Fowls.”

I have to agree there, as the context of Jesus' warnings & his Olivet prophecy concerns the destruction of Jerusalem, with further warnings for Christian living in readiness for his return, which culminates in resurrection & judgement. [Even if we profoundly disagree!] 

To summarise the chapter as I understand it.

There are many occasions throughout the NT when we learn of the double harvest judgement. John -  Mat. 3:11-12 Jesus Kingdom parables - Mat. 13:37-43 John 5:28-29 Peter - Acts 3:22-26 Paul - 2 The. 1:6-10 Peter - 2 Peter 3:7 2 Peter 3:13 John - Rev. 14:14-19 So we see in Rev. 19 the praises of the redeemed in heaven as the wicked are judged - that glorious 4-fold hallelujah!

The redeemed join their heavenly bridegroom for the marriage feast, while Christ is seen as the Faithful & True on a white horse, leading the heavenly army. He is King of kings & Lord of lords & he has one final act of judgement to accomplish - the destruction of the wicked who fought against him & his followers on earth. It's not a physical battle, but judgement by his Word, the sword of his mouth, & they are cast into hell. That judgement is prophesied in terms of a physical battle, but in reality is far more terrible, & is not prolongued, & the issue is not in doubt.

Where is Israel in all this? Counted in with the redeemed people of God - firstfruits ( Rev. 14:1-5 ), praising their Saviour-God with heart-felt hallelujahs. Jesus & his Apostles do not see a return to the land, but a return to their Saviour God. 

I'm not saying we are in Armageddon now, but as we look around the world we can see the Satan-led armies gathering against the believers in many countries, with the enemy showing many faces -  the absolute hatred of ISIS & atheist communism, resurgent Hinduism, to the benign deceptive ecumenical movement & false Christianity. Watch & pray! Mark 13:31-33      

 

 

[Alan]

Revelation 19:17-21 Response to Covenanter March 18, 2015

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

Covenanter wrote:

The Gog-Magog prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is explicitly restated after the "millennium" indicating that the Satan-led nations will gather against Christ at the end of time before they are utterly destroyed by fire from heaven. The battles employ weapons of the time, to be used as firewood. Eze. 39:9-10 Now, I do not expect the Bible prophets to describe modern warfare & weapons, but we do need to understand what the prophets are describing if the prophecies are applicable to us & our times. I consider it to be symbolic ... I do not anticipate a physical battle of the demonic armies against Christ in person.

Alan replied:

1. I thought that you did not believe in a literal Millennium in Revelation 20:3-6. So, how is it that you say that the judgment, the battles referred to Revelation 19: 11-21; 20:7-9 and Ezekiel are all symbolic. To me it makes no sense if all of these are symbolic, and we are in the Tribulation or Millennium now; why are you saying the two battles are separate? Forgive me, if it is all symbolic than anybody can interpret anything they so desire. Hence, there is no truth, no real prophecy and no real meaning, and obviously, no real battle. To assume that that the weapons employed are not real, ‘wood,’ because of the prophets did not understand modern warfare is questionable. Possibly, during the extreme plagues during the Tribulation all modern machines are destroyed, shipping is halted, and gasoline supplies for modern machinery is unobtainable. Hence, warring nations will revert back to horses.

2. A very close reading of Ezekiel chapter 38 & 39 and Revelation 19:11-21 and the final battle of, ‘God and Magog,’ has convinced me that the two battles are connected. I will cover more of this in my study of Revelation 20:7-10

Verse 19 and 20 The End of the Beast, the False Prophet, and the Deceived who took the Mark of the Beast.

The prophet Joel prophesied of this time in Joel 2:11, “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Covenanter wrote:

The prophecy of Joel taken literally, is about a plague of locusts... Joel 2:28-32 is the wonderful promise of Pentecost. The sun was indeed turned to darkness at Calvary a few weeks before.

The plague of locusts is seen again in Rev. 9 when the fifth trumpet sounds. This is a demonic plague.   

Alan replied:

The fulfillment of Joel 2:11 is fulfilled in Revelation 19:11-21 as previously mentioned. Revelation 19:21 expressly, and very clearly, states, “And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse [the Lord Jesus], which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.” There is no symbolism in this verse.

Also, the following verses are very clear that the, ‘day of the LORD, and the plague of locusts, are not the same. Joel was prophesying concerning the battle in Revelation 19:11-21 “Alas for the day! For the day of the LORD is at hand, as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.” Joel 1:15 “Blow the alarm in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand.” Joel 2:30and 31, “And I will shew wonders in the heavens, and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.”

All of that prophecy did not happen in Acts 2:17-21; the conclusion of that prophecy is in Revelation 19:11-21

I do agree with one of your acute observations in Joel concerning the locusts. It does coincide with the events of Revelation 9:1-11. Thank you very much for bringing that out as I am sure it is a blessing to all. Maybe if you had a future lesson in another post concerning the locusts I am sure it would be a blessing to all.

Covenanter wrote:

I'm in general agreement. I believe, however, that the immediate context of Revelation is the destruction of Jerusalem, whose mantle of opposition to Christ & his church was taken up by Rome. What applied at the time of writing applies down the centuries to this day. 

Alan replied:

I am glad that you are general agreement. The immediate context though is the end of the Tribulation Period with the destruction of the Beast and False Prophet, it is not in the immediate context of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Verse 21 The Feast of the Fowls.

Covenanter wrote:

I have to agree there, as the context of Jesus' warnings & his Olivet prophecy concerns the destruction of Jerusalem, with further warnings for Christian living in readiness for his return, which culminates in resurrection & judgement. [Even if we profoundly disagree!] 

To summarise the chapter as I understand it.

Alan replied:

The context is the end of the Tribulation Period and not the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

It's not a physical battle, but judgement by his Word, the sword of his mouth, & they are cast into hell. That judgement is prophesied in terms of a physical battle, but in reality is far more terrible, & is not prolongued, & the issue is not in doubt.

Alan replied:

It is a physical, literal, battle. None of the events, people, animals, or location, is symbolic or figurative in any manner, shape or fashion.

Covenanter wrote:

Where is Israel in all this? Counted in with the redeemed people of God - firstfruits ( Rev. 14:1-5 ), praising their Saviour-God with heart-felt hallelujahs. Jesus & his Apostles do not see a return to the land, but a return to their Saviour God. 

Alan replied:

Israel is back in the land being protected by God from the anti-Christ: Revelation chapter 12. The Lord Jesus is the one leading the battle.

Covenanter wrote:

I'm not saying we are in Armageddon now...

Alan replied:

If what you have said is true, that the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was the last of the prophetic of God dealing with the Jews, and all the events so far that we covered are, ‘symbolic, than yes, we are in the period known in the scriptures as, ‘Armageddon,’ or ‘the Tribulation Period,’ or the, ‘Millennium.’ That is the only conclusion possible in your line of interpretation.

I, for one of many brethren, am thankful that we are not. The Lord Jesus gave me, and every other redeemed saint, as Jesus phrased it, “...unto the churches,” , a special promise in Revelation 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [the Tribulation period] which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

Thank you Lord Jesus!

Brethren

The next lesson in Revelation 20 will be uploaded soon! Keep those comments, questions, points of discussion, and thoughts coming!

[Covenanter]

Revelation 19:17-21 Response to Covenanter March 18, 2015

Verse 17 & 18 The Call of the Angel for War and A Sacrifice of God for the Fowls.

Covenanter wrote:

The Gog-Magog prophecy of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is explicitly restated after the "millennium" indicating that the Satan-led nations will gather against Christ at the end of time before they are utterly destroyed by fire from heaven. The battles employ weapons of the time, to be used as firewood.Eze. 39:9-10 Now, I do not expect the Bible prophets to describe modern warfare & weapons, but we do need to understand what the prophets are describing if the prophecies are applicable to us & our times. I consider it to be symbolic ... I do not anticipate a physical battle of the demonic armies against Christ in person.

Alan replied:

1. I thought that you did not believe in a literal Millennium in Revelation 20:3-6. So, how is it that you say that the judgment, the battles referred to Revelation 19: 11-21; 20:7-9and Ezekiel are all symbolic. To me it makes no sense if all of these are symbolic, and we are in the Tribulation or Millennium now; why are you saying the two battles are separate? Forgive me, if it is all symbolic than anybody can interpret anything they so desire. Hence, there is no truth, no real prophecy and no real meaning, and obviously, no real battle. To assume that that the weapons employed are not real, ‘wood,’ because of the prophets did not understand modern warfare is questionable. Possibly, during the extreme plagues during the Tribulation all modern machines are destroyed, shipping is halted, and gasoline supplies for modern machinery is unobtainable. Hence, warring nations will revert back to horses.

2. A very close reading of Ezekiel chapter 38 & 39 and Revelation 19:11-21 and the final battle of, ‘God and Magog,’ has convinced me that the two battles are connected. I will cover more of this in my study of Revelation 20:7-10

You did not include my final sentence: 

God the Son fights with the sword of his mouth - his word. A word is all he needs. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat. 25:41    

Christ defeats his enemies with his Word, NOT physically with a sharpened tongue.  

I put "millennium" in quotes to my understanding of Rev. 20, which I understand to run from the first C to the end of time, shortly before Jesus returns. The battles of Rev. 19 & 20 are I believe the same - Gog/Magog. The final spiritual battle against the people of God on earth. Whether the present situation is the final battle, I do not know. Many occasions down the centuries have caused believers to expect the imminent return of Jesus. The fall of Rome, obviously, but also the wars & plagues of the second millennium, RC persecution & the Reformation, WWII & Jews returning to the promised land, etc. 

"Symbolic" must have a real meaning to be usefully symbolic. We are not inventing arbitrary meanings at a whim. In the context, physical war is symbolic of spiritual war. 

OT prophecy may have an immediate meaning according to context, e.g. Isa. 13:1  Isa. 13:17 It may be a clear prophecy of Jesus life & work, e.g. Isa. 9:6-7 & Zec. 9:9 & the many other refs. in the Gospels.

Reading the NT we come across many OT prophecies being fulfilled, & many allusions to types & shadows of the Law being examples of spiritual, heavenly realities. Prophecy is real, but needs to be understood in ways the NT writers teach. 

 

[Covenanter]

Covenanter wrote:

Where is Israel in all this? Counted in with the redeemed people of God - firstfruits ( Rev. 14:1-5 ), praising their Saviour-God with heart-felt hallelujahs. Jesus & his Apostles do not see a return to the land, but a return to their Saviour God. 

Alan replied:

Israel is back in the land being protected by God from the anti-Christ: Revelation chapter 12. The Lord Jesus is the one leading the battle.

Covenanter wrote:

I'm not saying we are in Armageddon now...

Alan replied:

If what you have said is true, that the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 was the last of the prophetic of God dealing with the Jews, and all the events so far that we covered are, ‘symbolic, than yes, we are in the period known in the scriptures as, ‘Armageddon,’ or ‘the Tribulation Period,’ or the, ‘Millennium.’ That is the only conclusion possible in your line of interpretation.

I, for one of many brethren, am thankful that we are not. The Lord Jesus gave me, and every other redeemed saint, as Jesus phrased it, “...unto the churches,” , a special promise in Revelation 3:10, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [the Tribulation period] which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.”

Thank you Lord Jesus!

 

The destruction of Jerusalem was indeed God's final dealing with national Israel, though not, of course, with the Jews - the Gospel remains welcoming to all to the end of time. See Mat. 23:32-36  1 The. 2:14-16 That great trib & destruction was completed in the AD 70 destruction. Note the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecy to the women of Jerusalem: Luke 23:27-31 Rev. 6:15-17 originally prophesied by Isaiah 2:19-21 Moses' prophetic warning in Deu. 18:15-19 was repeated by Peter - Acts 3:22-23 The Holy Spirit through Stephen declared them "uncircumcised" - Acts 7:48-53 

 

Whether there will be a great Jewish revival at the end of time in unclear from prophecy. God's people, both Jew & Gentile are being saved down the ages, but the rejection of Christ by unbelieving Jews means that Jewish Christians soon become estranged from the families & by Christian marriage lose their Jewish identity. (But not to God who knows all.) 

 

[Alan]

 

Covenanter wrote:

The destruction of Jerusalem was indeed God's final dealing with national Israel, though not, of course, with the Jews - the Gospel remains welcoming to all to the end of time. See Mat. 23:32-36  1 The. 2:14-16 That great trib & destruction was completed in the AD 70 destruction. Note the fulfilment of Jesus' prophecy to the women of Jerusalem: Luke 23:27-31 Rev. 6:15-17 originally prophesied by Isaiah 2:19-21 Moses' prophetic warning in Deu. 18:15-19 was repeated by Peter - Acts 3:22-23 The Holy Spirit through Stephen declared them "uncircumcised" - Acts 7:48-53 

Covenanter said:

God the Son fights with the sword of his mouth - his word. A word is all he needs. Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat. 25:41 

Alan replied:

The words of the Lord Jesus in Matthew 25:41 is taken completely out of context of Revelation 19:17-21 The context of Matthew 25:31-46 is dealing with the Lord Jesus on His throne in Jerusalem during His Millenial reign. The Lord Jesus can use either His mouth to speak the words or His hands to do His work.

Also, in John 18:1-6, as an example, the Lord Jesus uses the words of His mouth to cause Judas and the others to fall backward. During the events of Revelation 19:11-21 the Lord Jesus will use His word as a sword, He will speak and, instead of falling backward, they will be killed.

 

Whether there will be a great Jewish revival at the end of time in unclear from prophecy. God's people, both Jew & Gentile are being saved down the ages, but the rejection of Christ by unbelieving Jews means that Jewish Christians soon become estranged from the families & by Christian marriage lose their Jewish identity. (But not to God who knows all.) 

 

Alan Replied:

I have previously scripturally refuted the ‘Replacement Theology,’ and ‘Preterist theology,’ interpretation that the Great Tribulation Period ended with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. adequately.

Although I have already briefly answered the question, ‘The destruction of Jerusalem was indeed God's final dealing with national Israel...’ that statement is in doctrinal error. I will briefly refer the reader to the book of Hosea.

“I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.” Hosea 12:10 Hosea was a ‘similitude,’ or, ‘a type,’ of the backslidden, and adulterous, nation of Israel.

As Hosea’s backslidden and adulterous wife, Gomer, was restored (please study Hosea 3:1-3), one day God will restore the nation of Israel to Himself. Hosea 3:5, “Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.” The ‘latter days,’ is a clear and refutable reference to the fulfillment in the events in Revelation chapter 6-20

See Hosea 5:15 and the entire chapter of Hosea 14

God Almighty gave this promise to the nation of Israel that totally exposes the incorrect doctrine of ‘Replacement Theology,’ and ‘Preterist theology,’ when God promised to the nation of Israel.

“I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.” Hosea 14:4

Brethren,

Please excuse the delay as I needed to delay the next lesson to answer the above two concerns. The next lesson will be uploaded soon. Looking forward to a continuing great, and obviously controversial, study in the events of the last days as recorded in the Book of Revelation!

 

[Alan]

Revelation 20:1-3, “Satan Bound.”

Verse 1, And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Verse 2, And he laid hold on the dragon that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Verse 3, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

“... an angel come down from heaven, ...’

The angel is the Lord Jesus. Revelation 1:18, “I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

And, is the same angel in Revelation 9:1 and 2 that takes the key of the bottomless pit in order for the demonic locusts upon the earth.

 ‘...having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.’

The Lord Jesus does not say a word, He takes the ‘key,’ to the bottomless pit, ‘hell,’ He takes a ‘great chain.’ in His hands. The ‘great chain,’ is a special chain.  2 Peter 2:4, “For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.” 2 Peter 2:4 in conjunction with 2 Peter 2:4 please read Jude 6. These chains are, ‘chains of darkness,’ whereas the chain in the hands of the Lord Jesus, is a special, ‘great chain.’ And comments on this, 'great chain?'

The Lord Jesus uses His own two hands to physically hold this, ‘great chain,’ in His own two hands. The Lord Jesus could use His mouth to speak the word: but He does not. The Lord Jesus is God in the flesh. He can use His hands to fulfill His will, or His feet like any other man uses the members of his body to accomplish a task.

‘... the Devil,...’

The order of names is the same as written in Revelation 12:9. The names given the Devil are a definite reference to his character: Dragon is a reference to his cruelty, Serpent is a reference to his guile and cunning treachery, Devil is a reference to his deceptive abilities and the tempter of men, Satan means opponent; the enemy of God, Jesus, The Bible, Righteousness, Holiness, Faithful Preachers, and Saints. It has been said that you can know a man's character by the company they keep.  Who do you keep company with?

‘...cast him into the bottomless pit...’

Please take special notice. The Lord Jesus does not speak a word. Although the Lord Jesus could just the word to bind Satan, He does not. He takes the Devil in His own two hands, and bodily throws him into the bottomless pit: hell. Again, the Lord Jesus, God in the flesh, uses His hands to fulfill a task as any other man would.

‘... that he should deceive the nations no more...’

The primary object of Satan is to deceive. Satan deceived Eve into eating the forbidden fruit in order to cause man to dis-obey God, die, and spend eternity in hell. Satan hates God and does not want man to obey Him. Satan, and his devils (demons), primary arena of deception is ‘religion.’

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that brought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. ” 2 Peter 2:1 One of the duties of a Man of God is to teach the truth and denounce heresy. Jude 3 & 4 are still applicable in these last days. These false teachers, in these last days, are now even among the independent Baptist churches. Satan deceives men through religion. False religion and the false doctrines of the various corrupt religions of the world are deceiving men.

‘... till the thousand years should be fulfilled...’

For a literal one thousand years Satan will be sealed in the bottomless pit. The 1000 years is no way symbolic, figurative, or any other manner, not literal. God will fulfill His word as the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostle John to write.

“... after that...”

This is a direct, and irrefutable, reference to the 1000 millennial reign of Christ in verse 4-6.

[Covenanter]

Does Rev. 20 follow Rev. 19 in time? 

 

[Alan]

Yes. The timing of Revelation 20 follows immediately the events of Revelation 19.

[Rebecca]

Thank you for these lessons on Revelation. I have always been fascinated by this book, but have had difficulty understanding events and the timelines and such. Your lessons have been very helpful for me in these areas. 

[Covenanter]

Yes. The timing of Revelation 20 follows immediately the events of Revelation 19.

​With that timing, we see a total victory for Jesus by the end of Rev. 19:17-21  - believers have been "raptured" & the unbelievers slain. As I understand your teaching, you believe that great slaughter - "the feast of the fowls" was Ezekiel's Gog-Magog war & defeat. 

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. @BroMatt I can't indent this, so Scripture is in line with the rest of my reply.

 

No-one is left on earth. No mention of "tribulation survivors."  Though presumably you believe that 1/3 of Jews in Judaea will survive that slaughter, believe in Jesus, & enter the millennium. That is not taught here. 

 

As we move into Rev. 20, there are no nations to be deceived by Satan. They have been totally slain. The population of earth will be only Christian Jews. Yet after that glorious & peaceful millennium, the Gog-Magog war & defeat again takes place. Rev. 20:7-10 

 

And bear in mind that the double harvest took place in Rev. 14:14-20 

 

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev. 14:6-7 

 

I suggest you think again about your interpretation. Think "reiteration."  @BroMatt I had to go up a long way to find the "link" ikon. It would be helpful to have the format options visible. 

 

 

 

[Alan]

​Revelation 19-11-21 Covenanter Miss-interpretations March 20, 2015

Covenanter wrote:

With that timing, we see a total victory for Jesus by the end of Rev. 19:17-21  - believers have been "raptured" & the unbelievers slain. As I understand your teaching, you believe that great slaughter - "the feast of the fowls" was Ezekiel's Gog-Magog war & defeat... No-one is left on earth. No mention of "tribulation survivors."  Though presumably you believe that 1/3 of Jews in Judaea will survive that slaughter, believe in Jesus, & enter the millennium. That is not taught here. 

Alan Replied:

The scriptures clearly stated and I clearly stated that the, ‘... Beast, the False Prophet and the armies of the Beast was destroyed.’ Nobody escapes from the battle in Revelation 19:11-21 that was involved, Gog, Magog, and the countries allied with them, which is very clear. My friend, there are other countries of the world than God, Magog, and their allies.

I never stated, nor do the scriptures state, that, ‘No-one is left on earth,’ is left. I did not even insinuate that and a miss-representation of this lesson, and, quite frankly, you deliberately twisted my words in order to try and prove I was in error. The lesson in Revelation 20: 4-6 was going to deal with that. Your miss-representation is a lie.

Covenanter wrote:

As we move into Rev. 20, there are no nations to be deceived by Satan. They have been totally slain. The population of earth will be only Christian Jews. Yet after that glorious & peaceful millennium, the Gog-Magog war & defeat again takes place. Rev. 20:7-10 

Alan replied:

Again, you miss-represent the conclusion of the battle and, even before I mention who is left on the earth to enter the Millennium and then the battle of Gog and Magog in Revelation 20:8-10, you purposely put words in my explanation of the scriptures that are not there. I am first of all appalled, then  shocked, and because of your lies you are trying to harm this lesson. If you continue with you miss-representation, than I will not respond to any more of your questions or comments. 

And bear in mind that the double harvest took place in Rev. 14:14-20 

Alan replied:

Let me comment on the current section please and take care of the miss-representation that you wrote.

Covenanter wrote:

And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. Rev. 14:6-7 

 I suggest you think again about your interpretation. Think "reiteration."  . 

 Alan replied:

I suggest you let me finish the lesson. My interpretation is entirely correct  and was miss-represented by you: your interpretation  is totally incorrect