Father, Forgive Them

[John81]

I recently heard a pastor say that when Jesus prayed the Father would forgive them (those who crucified him), and when Stephen prayed the same for those who stoned him to death, those were prayers both knew God couldn't and wouldn't grant.

 

The pastor said those prayers were only given to show how forgiving they (Jesus and Stephen) were. He said God would not grant their prayer request and that both (Jesus and Stephen) knew that.

 

I've never heard that preached before.

 

Could, would, did, might God grant their prayer request and not hold that specific sin against their attackers?

 

 

[HappyChristian]

God couldn't and wouldn't grant a prayer uttered by God the Son?  I don't think so....

 

I've heard that, at least in the case of Christ, that the prayer was intended for God not to strike them all dead right at that point, since they were crucifying His Son. Of course, it's all opinion, because we don't actually know the reason, but that fits better with scripture.

[wretched]

I recently heard a pastor say that when Jesus prayed the Father would forgive them (those who crucified him), and when Stephen prayed the same for those who stoned him to death, those were prayers both knew God couldn't and wouldn't grant.

 

The pastor said those prayers were only given to show how forgiving they (Jesus and Stephen) were. He said God would not grant their prayer request and that both (Jesus and Stephen) knew that.

 

I've never heard that preached before.

 

Could, would, did, might God grant their prayer request and not hold that specific sin against their attackers?

 

Let's say He did honor the requests on these sins, this would not forgive all their other sins, keeping them condemned.

 

Of course, this thens begs a new question: Why was it mentioned except to demonstrate a Spirit lead existence of forgiveness exampled by Christ and then emulated by Stephen.

[Salyan]

If we pray for something that God won't answer, isn't that praying against the will of God? We don't usually know whether something is or isn't God's will, so it's done in ignorance, but if someone were to know that such-and-such were against the will of God - wouldn't it be rather sinful to still pray for it? Christ can't sin - so I can't see Him praying for something against God's Will. Especially since He said that He came to do the will of the Father.

 

As for the idea that they prayed that just to 'show how forgiving they were' - well, that's rather like praying on the street corners to be seen of men - and just plain prideful. God choosing to include it in Scripture to show their forgiveness is a completely different thing than them doing it to show it off themselves.

[ThePilgrim]

My opinion.  In the case of Christ at least, the culprits were not immedietly forgiven, but were to be worked upon by the holy spirit who convicted them of their sin and they came to Christ at a later time . . . . some in minutes . . . . some in days or years.  Recall the statement of the soldier involved in the crucifixion?  

[Covenanter]

Regarding Jesus' prayer, the disciples were forgiven for deserting him, & large numbers of Jews were forgiven from Pentecost onwards. They shouted "His blood be on us, and on our children." God, through Peter, proclaimed "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

 

And, of course, Stephen's prayer certainly applied to Saul - Paul. We don't know how many others - the Gospel continued to be preached in Jerusalem. We do also know that there were certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed. (Acts 15)

 

 

Let's say He did honor the requests on these sins, this would not forgive all their other sins, keeping them condemned.

 

As for selective sins being forgiven, while the sinners being unforgiven, I find this extraordinary. Sin is our condition, not just specific sins that can be confessed  & purged, while remaining guilty of unconfessed sins. That sounds like the RC confessional.

[DaveW]

Luke 23
 34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Well, considering the context, I find it extraordinary that someone could not apply this to the specific situation.

Otherwise it must apply to all involved.
This can not be talking of forgiveness for their sinful condition, and it is not restricted to any individual or group there present.

[Invicta]

59  And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60  And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

[Genevanpreacher]

Jesus Christ - asked forgiveness for the act of crucifixion?

Stephen - asked forgiveness for their ignorance of stoning him for speaking truth?

 

IMO.

[John81]

A couple thoughts, somewhat from what I've heard preached before...

 

This could be asking God not to punish those people in this life for that sin.

 

This could be asking God to grant forgiveness of this particular sin, and thus they would not receive temporal or eternal punishment for that particular sin.

 

Of course any of these who died without being born again would still be condemned to hell but perhaps these specific sins would not be a factor in their degree of punishment.

[wretched]

A couple thoughts, somewhat from what I've heard preached before...

 

This could be asking God not to punish those people in this life for that sin.

 

This could be asking God to grant forgiveness of this particular sin, and thus they would not receive temporal or eternal punishment for that particular sin.

 

Of course any of these who died without being born again would still be condemned to hell but perhaps these specific sins would not be a factor in their degree of punishment.

 

Each or all make logical sense I think

[ThePilgrim]

How can I think that God would put limits on His forgiveness for others when I see that He put no limits on His forgiveness for me?

[Covenanter]

What does Scripture say?

 

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

 

 

Acts 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer , he hath so fulfilled .

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted , that your sins may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying , Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down , and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep .

 

 

 

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

1 Tim. 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I OBtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

 

It seems that the rulers & people who crucified Jesus were ignorant of the crime they were committing, crucifying or demanding the execution of their Messiah. Acts 3:17 So forgiveness was freely proclaimed subject to repentance.

 

There is no reason to suppose forgiveness apart from repentance, nor an arbitrary forgiveness just because of the prayers of Jesus & Stephen.

 

And many were ideed forgiven. General prayers were answered specifically.

 

 

[Ukulelemike]

I would agree that the specific sins were the context: those crucifying Jesus, and those stoning Stephen. 

 

That jesus' request was granted is plain, because He is God, and He Himself forgives sin. No reason to believe it wasn't the case here. Though I don't see in the context of it having to do with any other sins, or their general lost condition. Though at least one present DID, indeed, find faith and salvation in Christ, the thief next to Jesus.

 

In the case of Stephen's prayer, we can't know whether this was forgiven or not-this is between the Lord, Stephen and those stoning him. It is possible they weren't forgiven for this, unless they found salvation, but I suppose we'll know one day. It wouldn't have mattered if they continued on in sin, except that, if they were forgiven for this one, perhaps their eternal jucdgment will not be as bad as if they were held against them.

[ThePilgrim]

I believe that the work of the Holy Spirit is what convicts one of sin and thus brings one to repentance and then forgiveness and salvation and eternal life.  Am I wrong?  Could be because I ain't no genius.  If this my surmising is correct then I see no reason why Jesus's request of His Father could not have been answered by the work of the Holy Spirit bringing those (the subjects of this discussion) to conviction and repentance.  Just guessing because the scriptures don't say so, so don't hang your hat on it.  I don't see where the Holy Spirit and his work has been considered in this discussion.