Dispensations

[AVBibleBeliever]

The questions were geared to help you see that they HAD to ACT on their faith.  All I am asking you is to admit you see that they had to act on their faith, and if they did not what would be the results.  It is not a hard thing to answer but you avoid the answers like the plague.  It staring you right in the face. Hebrew 11 verifies they acted upon their faith otherwise they would not been listed their. 

 

So we all know exactly what would have happened if they did not act on their faith on God's word.

 

Today all one has to do is believe with the heart.  It was not so with just the few I listed from the OT, faith without works for them was dead unless they acted upon their faith.

 

ALL of them are saved because they acted upon their faith.  Not one of them knew about Jesus Christ death burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sins of individuals for it was not even revealed until Paul.  So up until Paul all faith was verified by their actions.

 

Paul never taught that " belief or faith" on Jesus as "the Son of God" got anyone saved.

 

Not one of the OT saints I listed in their life time even knew that Jesus Christ was the son of God.

 

Does one need to do a physical act of any kind today in order to be saved?  Before you say "confession with the mouth" is a physical act, you are wrong, it is a result of salvation it did not get them saved.  Belief in the heart gave them salvation and that is not a physical but a spiritual thing.

 

Demonstrations, acts or works were needed and added from the Genesis up until Act 8 to their faith.  Every instance proves that.  The work did not save but it was needed to verify their faith because God required it under that dispensation of his grace.  I believe that it will be that way again once the church (not the church in the wilderness or the church of the firstborn), when the body of Christ is gathered together unto Jesus in the clouds.

 

Faith works and grace are found in every dispensation.  The only difference today is works is a result of Salvation not a prerequisite to prove ones faith as James the bother of John says in the book of James.

 

It was not works based salvation but rather faith based salvation works was needed to prove their faith.

[John81]

Scripture proves you wrong, consistently, and such has been put forth here and elsewhere, yet you continue to propogate works based salvation when such never was and never will be God's plan. What you are promoting, Scripture condemns in the harshest of terms.

 

You should stop putting forth these dangerous doctrines from hell.

[No Nicolaitans]

The questions were geared to help you see that they HAD to ACT on their faith.  All I am asking you is to admit you see that they had to act on their faith, 

 

No, I won't admit that they HAD to ACT on their faith, because that's not at all what is taught in the examples you gave, Hebrews 11, or the Bible as a whole. 

 

Their FAITH was the reason they ACTED.

 

You tied this to James as proof that God required works as a prerequisite to faith. In other words, you are using James as proof that God required works before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Let's see what James says...

 

James 2:17-18
17   Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18   Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

Who is talking, and who is he talking to? James is talking, and he is talking to God? No, he's talking to another man.

 

This is man showing man his faith by his works.

 

Man can't "see" faith; only God can. Yet James is saying for another man to be able to see his faith, that can only be done by the other man seeing his works. That's it. That's how YOU see that Noah had faith...by his works. That's how YOU see that Rahab, JacOB, Abraham, etc. had faith...by their works.

 

Nowhere does the Bible say that their works were needed or required to prove their faith. I think an omniscient God knows if someone's faith is real or not; how can they prove their faith to him when he already knows?

 

As to whether they knew Jesus or not, that's not a prOBlem in my view. They may not have known him by name, but he was there...for them to know. I think the Lord Jesus Christ says it best...

 

AV, Wretched, Beameup, please read these verses carefully and note what the Lord is saying.

 

Luke 24:25-27 & 44
25   Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26   Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27   And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

44   And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

He was there, in the Old Testament. 

1. He was written about by Moses (Genesis-Deuteronomy).
2. He was written about in the psalms.
3. He was written about in the prophets.

And what was written about him by Moses, the psalms, and the prophets? This is what was written about him...

 

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things,  - the death and burial.

and to enter into his glory?- the resurrection.

 

Make of it what you will.

[AVBibleBeliever]

No, I won't admit that they HAD to ACT on their faith, because that's not at all what is taught in the examples you gave, Hebrews 11, or the Bible as a whole. 

 

Their FAITH was the reason they ACTED.

 

You tied this to James as proof that God required works as a prerequisite to faith. In other words, you are using James as proof that God required works before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Let's see what James says...

 

James 2:17-18
17   Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18   Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

Who is talking, and who is he talking to? James is talking, and he is talking to God? No, he's talking to another man.

 

This is man showing man his faith by his works.

 

Man can't "see" faith; only God can. Yet James is saying for another man to be able to see his faith, that can only be done by the other man seeing his works. That's it. That's how YOU see that Noah had faith...by his works. That's how YOU see that Rahab, JacOB, Abraham, etc. had faith...by their works.

 

Nowhere does the Bible say that their works were needed or required to prove their faith. I think an omniscient God knows if someone's faith is real or not; how can they prove their faith to him when he already knows?

 

As to whether they knew Jesus or not, that's not a prOBlem in my view. They may not have known him by name, but he was there...for them to know. I think the Lord Jesus Christ says it best...

 

AV, Wretched, Beameup, please read these verses carefully and note what the Lord is saying.

 

Luke 24:25-27 & 44
25   Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26   Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27   And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

44   And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

 

He was there, in the Old Testament. 

1. He was written about by Moses (Genesis-Deuteronomy).
2. He was written about in the psalms.
3. He was written about in the prophets.

And what was written about him by Moses, the psalms, and the prophets? This is what was written about him...

 

Ought not Christ to have suffered these things,  - the death and burial.

and to enter into his glory?- the resurrection.

 

Make of it what you will.

It always amazes me when someone looks at the plain facts and yet will wilfully say, "I will not admit" what the scriptures say in order to keep my baby food teaching.

 

Christ the Messiah was said to suffer to fulfill the scriptures of their King whom they would betray, despise and crucify.  It has to do with the Kingdom that was at hand and never was established. 

 

All the OT saints I listed showed their faith by their works. if they did not they were dead dead dead.  Even Naaman got saved.

 

the death burial and resurrection of the Messiah the king, the prophet like unto Moses to rule Israel and the world, was foretold so they would know that he was their Messiah KING by his raising from the dead.  There was no forgiveness of sins for individual men only for the nation Israel if they had accepted him.  They rejected God the father in the OT. God the son, Jesus Christ in the gospels, and the God Holy Ghost in Acts 1-8.

[AVBibleBeliever]

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

Two things the Pharisee's were mistaken of 1) the idea that OBedience to the Scriptures would save them though their hearts were not right.  And 2) that because they were Jews they automatically would get eternal life.

 

Jesus did not tell the Pharisee that the Scriptures testified of him saving men by grace through faith alone. 

 

He told them the scriptures testified of him his coming as being the prophet like unto moses, their promised messiah king to to lead Israel and the world,

[No Nicolaitans]

It always amazes me when someone looks at the plain facts and yet will wilfully say, "I will not admit" what the scriptures say

 

Now on that, you and I agree.

 

Consider me a baby-food Christian if you wish, but I'll gladly accept that label from you. I've done what I can to show you the error of your ways to no avail. I have no interest in going back and forth any longer with you about biblical issues.

 

With that said, I do hope your jOB and health situations improve though. Have a nice day.

[Covenanter]

The Pharisee's were under the mistaken idea that OBedience to the Scriptures would save them though their hearts were not right.
 
Jesus did not tell the Pharisee that the Scriptures spoke of him as saving men by grace through faith alone.  He told them the scriptures spoke of him as their messiah king to to lead Israel and the world.

Please give Scripture references. My Bible tells me that Jesus knew he would be rejected and crucified, and rise from the dead. That was the work he came to do. He FINISHED it on the cross. The way to God was opened through the rent veil. He NEVER offered the Jews a physical earthly kingdom. Nor did the Apostles.

They were commanded to repent, not to take up arms. Jesus is reigning now, from his heavenly throne. The future for the Jews who rejected their Messiah was destruction and hell, not a millennial kingdom.

Read Jesus' teaching in his last week and Peter's in Acts 2 & 3.

Where do you get your teaching from? What sect/heresy do you follow?

[AVBibleBeliever]

Covenator, why do you not quote all three of my statements?

 

As such you misrepresent my words and it is not worthy of my effort to even answer you.

 

From what I have heard you say throughout many of these threads, is you are more of a sectarian heretical cult than I.

[MountainChristian]

There was no forgiveness of sins for individual men only for the nation Israel if they had accepted him. 

 

 Les Feldick's Gospel of the Kingdom doctrine.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people (the whole nation not individuals) from their sins.

Luk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people (the whole nation not individuals) by the remission of their sins,

 

Does the Bible prove that dotrine right or wrong?

Mat 3:4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

Mat 3:5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

Mat 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their (whole Nation's) sins.

 

Mat 9:2 And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. (son is one individual)

Mat 9:5 For whether is easier, to say, Thy (whole Nation's) sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

Mat 9:6 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive (National Jewish) sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. (thy is one individual)

 

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many (only the Jewish Nation) for the remission of sins.

 

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of (National Jewish) sins.

Mar 1:5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their (whole Nation's) sins.

 

Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy (Nation's) sins be forgiven thee. (Son is one individual)

Mar 2:6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

Mar 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive (National) sins but God only?

Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy (Nation's) sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive (The Jewish Nation's) sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Mar 2:12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

 

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of (Jewish) men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 

 

Luk 3:2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.

Luk 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of (the whole Nation's) sins;

 

 Luk 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy (Jewish Nation's) sins are forgiven thee. (thy is one individual)

Luk 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive (Jewish) sins, but God alone?

Luk 5:22 But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, he answering said unto them, What reason ye in your hearts?

Luk 5:23 Whether is easier, to say, Thy (Jewish Nation's) sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk?

Luk 5:24 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive (Jewish) sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

Luk 5:25 And immediately he rose up before them, and took up that whereon he lay, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.

Luk 5:26 And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.

 

 Luk 11:4 And forgive us our (Nation's) sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

 

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of (Jewish) sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

 

Jhn 20:23 Whose soever (Jewish Nation's) sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever (Jewish Nation's) sins ye retain, they are retained. (whose soever is individuals)

 

Peter proves it was the Nation not individuals, thus Jesus was wrong 

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you (the whole nation not individuals) in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye (whole nation) shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

Act 3:19 Repent ye (Nation) therefore, and be converted, that your (Nations) sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of (National) sins.

 

Paul gets saved in chapter 9 of Acts but Peter doesn't change his message

Act 10:42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Act 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of (Jewish National) sins.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. Gentiles was forgiven Jewish sins?

 

Paul starts preaching individual sins are forgiven, no one not even Jesus has preached this before

Act 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of (individual) sins:

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gal 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 

 

I used () to explain how Les Feldick explains the Holy Bible

[MountainChristian]

When Noah built the ark, did he build out of OBligation or love? When Noah couldn't close the door of the ark was it God's grace that closed the door and made the ark water tight? After all of Noah's hard work the Ark had a huge hole in it.

[beameup]

 

 Les Feldick's Gospel of the Kingdom doctrine.

 

Why do you keep referencing Les Feldick?  No one here watches him on a regular basis (except you, it seems).

He is not King James ONLY, he is KJV preferred, and strongly defends the KJV and discredits other versions.

He does however correctly point out the division between scripture written TO Jews and that written to the Body of Christ

(which is more than I can say for many posters).  He definitely discredits the 4th Century Catholic Doctrine of applying

the Gospels DIRECTLY to the Body of Christ.

[DaveW]

You keep saying "4th century Catholic doctrine" whereas people answer your rubbish with Scripture.

You don't even present any proof of your accusation.

The Catholics certainly don't present the Gospel - never have, so I don't know why you keep saying it.
And apart from two or maybe three replacement theology people here (who should be kicked out), no one here is of that ilk, so that is a false accusation as well.

How about you try to actually answer the myriad of Bible verses that people have put that show that the Gospel has been the same, and that those prior to the cross knew about the coming Messiah?

[MountainChristian]

 

Paul never taught that " belief or faith" on Jesus as "the Son of God" got anyone saved.

 

[AVBibleBeliever]

 

"his people" is a reference to the Nation of Israel, it does not include gentiles or gentile nations.

 

If you go through out the Bible and look at this phrase as well as the people, this people, my people it is always referring to Israel as a nation.  Not individuals but as a nation.  God's divine built in cross reference in the AV is very revealing when used.

 

Save is not always a reference to salvation or eternal life.

 

When He said it is finished.  Most will interpret that to mean He finished the Work of Salvation for all man kind. 

 

But a close look at all the scriptures tell us that what was "finished" was the fulfillment of all the scriptures concerning his first coming, born of a virgin, a prophet like unto Moses, a king from the loins of David, teaching his people, being despised, being sold for 30 pieces of silver, beaten to the point his visage was marred more than any man, Having his clothes divided by lot, being crucified, and dying on the cross. And of course there are some 300 hundred other prophesies he fulfilled while being here. 

 

Then a whole set of other scriptures were fulfilled and still being fulfilled when and after he rose from the dead and went to sit at the the Fathers right hand while he awaits to take his place on mount Zion in Jerusalem.  It is Paul the apostle to the gentiles, that taught us of the spiritual aspect of what was done ont he cross for all man kind as individuals to OBtain salvation and eternal life through the gospel of the grace of God, he was given to dispense to this current age.  It was not the same message Jesus commanded the Twelve to take only to Israel.

 

The point of this thread is dispensational teaching, is not forsaking any scriptures or making any of them useless for anyone at anytime.  The point of dispensational teaching is to OBserve the scripture on how God dispensed his grace and love for man at different times.

 

Going from Adam when as we see in scriptures animals were sacrificed as he made coats of skins for them from those animals, to his finding only one man faithful in his generation to bring through the flood. To his finding only one man to call out to make a nation of priests, to delivering that nation from bondage, to establishing a covenant with them so they would remain in the land he promised their father, a syrian.  To the giving them rulers, and then a king like other nations even when they rejected him as their true King, to how he preserved them when he scattered them because they didn't keep the covenant they had made at mount Horeb. Then to the bringing of them back into the land and giving them the promised Messiah king, from the loins of David, to establish the kingdom that was promised David and the nation of Israel would rule forever over the earth.  Even to their rejection of their Messiah, the rejection of the Holy Ghost as they had rejected the Father in the OT.  In the setting them aside of Israel and the Kingdom, as he sent forth Paul with a Gospel of his Grace through faith for all men with no respect of persons and building the body of Christ. To the gathering of them unto Jesus and then his taking up his planned establishment of the promised kingdom at the time of Great Trouble for JacOB's tribes.  Even then when he will fight on earth with Satan, his anti-christ son of perdition, and the false prophet and the beast. Unto the shortening of those days so that Israel would not be destroyed.  Then executing the sentence on the fallen angles that followed after Satan, by casting them into the lake of fire.  To the binding of Satan for 1000 years and the setting up of the promised earthly kingdom where all Israel shall serve him as a nation of kings and priests. Then even right to the end when Satan is loosed, then leads the wicked to try once again to kill the King of Kings and the nation of Israel.

 

In all of the Bible we see God's wonderful grace extended to man, we see that men have to make a decision by what they know and hear of God's words, some must act on that decision, like some in today's age only need to have faith.  God's grace has always been there, mans response has always been there, and while some had to do outward acts others needed only to believe with their heart.

[wretched]

 

 

...and I stand by that statement.

 

 

Ok brother, I do understand your stand on this. I bought it too for 25 years because it really doesn't matter to us now as long as we have been convicted by the Spirit when hearing the Gospel and believed.

 

It is the easy way and the lazy way to explain when questions come and I will admit not worth looking into much when sharing the Gospel. You folks win.