Dispensations

[beameup]

Witnessed does not mean "alluded to".
It mean to tell something that you saw.
Your use of that actually says they SAW it, not that it was alluded to.

You particularly point out a definition which is WRONG.

If the Gospel of Grace had been fully revealed in prior to Acts 9,

then there would have been no need for Paul's conversion,

and you would imply that Paul was a liar and false apostle.

 

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things,  Heb 10:1a

If I want to use the phrase "alluded to" instead of a phrase/word used by Paul, then that is my privilege.

 

Perhaps a closer study of Paul's Epistles could yield some knowledge...

 

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

[DaveW]

If the Gospel of Grace had been fully revealed in prior to Acts 9,
then there would have been no need for Paul's conversion,
and you would imply that Paul was a liar and false apostle.

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, Heb 10:1a
If I want to use the phrase "alluded to" instead of a phrase/word used by Paul, then that is my privilege.

Perhaps a closer study of Paul's Epistles could yield some knowledge...

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

You gave, as part of your argument, a definition that is incorrect.
It is such an unusual definition of "witnessed" that it can only be assumed that you are deliberately misrepresenting that word for the purposes of your argument.
In these two posts I address no other issue.
And by the way, I do not imply NOR state anything at all about Paul in my comments.

[Jim_Alaska]

I am admittedly not very knowledgeable on this subject as far as it even being a point of contention among believers. I do need to say that for myself I guess I have always believed that there were different dispensations. But I would not have called them that on my own, I simply believed that there were different "ages" put forth in the Bible that were I dentified by certain people, time periods or covenants, if you will. I have never had the dubious distinction of ever hearing that these dispensations had anything to do with salvation in any other manner than by Grace through faith. So the controversy put forth here is all new to me.

 

Having seen that there even existed such a controversy I dug out a book on this subject that I have had for many years. It's one of those things that was given to me long ago and never even looked through because I never really had an interest in it.

 

I wanted to mention this to see if anyone else had ever read it and what they thought of it in the light of this present controversy.

The name of the book is: The Work Of Christ Consummated In Seven Dispensations. It was written by J.R. Graves in the year 1883.

 

I have now read through it and find that it shows the work of Christ from Gen. to Rev. and I see no suggestion that there has ever been any other means of salvation other than by the substitutionary death of Christ for our, or any one's sins. It seems to simply chronical the same truths that we find in our Bibles in regard to these different time periods.

 

Once again, if anyone here has ever had opportunity to read it, what were your thoughts on its accuracy.

[Standing Firm In Christ]

Haven't seen that one, Jim. I do, however, have a Baptist song book written by Graves in 1873.

[beameup]

You gave, as part of your argument, a definition that is incorrect.
It is such an unusual definition of "witnessed" that it can only be assumed that you are deliberately misrepresenting that word for the purposes of your argument.
In these two posts I address no other issue.
And by the way, I do not imply NOR state anything at all about Paul in my comments.

It wasn't a definition, it was a comment.  Did you even read the entire comment, or are you just ignoring it and selectively "picking"?

Had the Gospel of Grace been clearly "witnessed" in the Old Testament then there would have been no need for the Apostle Paul.

I sense a general discrediting of the Apostle Paul.  Some elevate Peter as the one who "built the Church" and diminish Paul.

 

[beameup]

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.  

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ["alluded to", not fully revealed, Heb 10:1a "a shadow"]

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe  [i don't see any "works" here at all, no animal sacrifices or circumcision, etc.]

Romans 3:20-22a

 

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit,

and not in the oldness of the letter. [of the Law]  Romans 7:6

 

Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment

of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the OBedience of faith:  Romans 16:25-26

 

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and

strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.  Ephesians 212-13

 

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  Colossians 1:25-26

 

Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles

 

I'll repost, perhaps some missed reading the post (or only read "selective" parts thereof).

[DaveW]

The discrediting is not of Paul, it is of a person who presents a false argument based on false definitions.

If you present a false definition of a phrase or word, and then base your argument upon it, then your argument MUST be false.

I have made no comment on dispensationalism, nor on Paul, nor on his teaching.
Your definition - or comment if you prefer - is what I commented upon.

It is a wrong commentary on the meaning.

Get that right, then people might bother to listen.

If the first sentence of your post is false then what does that say for the rest........

You can continue to accuse me - falsely I might add - or you can address the issue I pointed out.
Up to you......

[MountainChristian]

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.  

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ["alluded to", not fully revealed, Heb 10:1a "a shadow"]

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe  [i don't see any "works" here at all, no animal sacrifices or circumcision, etc.]

Romans 3:20-22a

 

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit,

and not in the oldness of the letter. [of the Law]  Romans 7:6

 

Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment

of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the OBedience of faith:  Romans 16:25-26

 

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and

strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.  Ephesians 212-13

 

Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;

Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:  Colossians 1:25-26

 

Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles

 

Why do you suppose that those of the Synagogue in Antioch followed Paul for over 100 miles to stone him to death?  hahahahahahahahaha

 

 

If the Gospel of Grace had been fully revealed in prior to Acts 9,

then there would have been no need for Paul's conversion,

and you would imply that Paul was a liar and false apostle.

 

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things,  Heb 10:1a

If I want to use the phrase "alluded to" instead of a phrase/word used by Paul, then that is my privilege.

 

Perhaps a closer study of Paul's Epistles could yield some knowledge...

 

Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

 

Paul says Jesus was preaching it before him.

[DaveW]

You know - I think I understand what you were trying to say now....

if you bothered to explain it rather just making accusations, you might find more success.

[beameup]

I was listening to a rather famous national Christian radio broadcast today, and the "bible teacher" commented on 1 Cor 3:10:

According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder,I have laid the foundation,

and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.  1 Cor 3:10

 

He basically said that it didn't really mean what it said because Paul did not build the Chuch, it was Peter that built the Church.

He implied that Paul was using a rather disingenuous statement as it was actually Peter with the guidance of Jesus that "built the church".

 

This is just one case of the multitude of things like this that I hear coming out of people's mouths and being broadcast all over the world.

[MountainChristian]

Acts 2:47 King James Version (KJV)

47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Matthew 16:18 King James Version (KJV)

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

 

Jesus builds the church, He is the foundation. Peter, Paul, John, Jude, James, Silas, etc all build upon Jesus/foundation when they started local churches. 

 

I've heard that kind of preaching too. Its almost like a contest to see who was the best apostle. Instead they should thank God for the great works He done through all the apostles. Its Jesus not Paul or Peter, or John, or James, or etc.

[No Nicolaitans]

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.  

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; ["alluded to", not fully revealed, Heb 10:1a "a shadow"]

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe  [i don't see any "works" here at all, no animal sacrifices or circumcision, etc.]

Romans 3:20-22a

 

But now 

 

But now 

 

But now

 

but now 

 

 

Okay...now show where works and/or the law WERE required for salvation.

 

Still waiting to see an answer to this... ↑

 

You also neglected to highlight certain portions of the scriptures that you were highlighting...

 

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit,

and not in the oldness of the letter. [of the Law]  Romans 7:6

 

Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ,

according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment

of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the OBedience of faith:  Romans 16:25-26

 

I've pointed this out before, but I'll humbly say it again...

 

Nowhere, NOWHERE in scripture is OBedience to the Old Testament law said to give salvation...the only promises given for OBeying the law were physical promises...promises of blessings (for OBedience to the law) in the land or promises of cursing them and driving them from the land (for disOBedience to the law).

 

What was "the mystery" (in relation to this subject we're speaking of) that Paul spoke of? It wasn't salvation by grace through faith; it was the church...that's the mystery. That both Jew and Gentile would be heirs together and part of the same body...the church.

 

Ephesians 3:3-6
3   How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4   Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5   Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6   That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

Israel couldn't see that. They neglected their own scriptures and became self-righteous...

 

Part of Israel's duty was to be a witness for God to the world...

 

Isaiah 43:10-12

10   Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11   I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
12   I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

 

...however, they neglected that duty, and "went about to establish their own righteousness" by stumbling over the law. Rather than being a witness for God, they became a nation of self-righteous isolationists. They stumbled over the intent of the law, thinking that keeping the law made them righteous; therefore, since the law was given to them, the rest of the world were heathens to be avoided.

 

God knew they couldn't keep the law, and that was the intent. The law was given to show them man's absolute incapacity to be self-righteous through works. They needed God's righteousness to be righteous, and that can only be imputed...not earned...and God's righteousness could only, can only, and will be only imputed by...his grace through faith.

 

Salvation has always been by grace through faith. What "work" did Adam perform to get God's forgiveness when he sinned? What work did Enoch do? David? Isaiah? Where does the Bible say that man had to do "works"...whether to earn salvation...or as others here put it...in addition to their faith? It's simply not there.

 

I sense a general discrediting of the Apostle Paul.  

 

The Les Feldick argument. ↑

 

1 Corinthians 1:12-13
12   Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13   Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

 

Paul didn't want undue exaltation being given to him. Beameup, let's be thankful to God for the writings of Paul; they were inspired by God, but let's only lift up the Lord Jesus Christ...he's the only one deserving of glory.

[DaveW]

NN - like, like, like.........

[John81]

[HappyChristian]

GREAT post, NN!!!