It Shall Be An Everlasting Covenant With Them

[Invicta]

But look at the order - 7 weeks, 62 weeks, events happen, then 70 week starts.

 

It is there plain and simple.

 

Messiah is cut off, then a bunch of things happen, then the covenant is "confirmed" THEN the sacrifice and OBlation cease in the midst of the 70th week.

The order of events is stated clearly and plainly.

 

You can not force the Messiah being cut off and the Sacrifice and OBlation ceasing into the same event - the language will not allow it.

 

And anyway - the sacrifice and OBlation did not cease at the death of Messiah. The Jews continued it until the destruction of the temple.

Note that it does not say that they would cease to be effective - it says the actual sacrifice and the OBlation themselves would cease.

 

 

 

I read the passage itself with no regard to any eschatological viewpoint - I examined it and set it out according to what the passage itself says.

 

It doesn't say the time period was ten days, ten years, or a thousand years, or ten thousand years, or any defined period of time - it just has to be enough time for the events to happen in the order they are stated.

 

Messiah is cut off; People of the prince come and destroy the city and the Sanctuary; the end (and it doesn't specify the end of what) comes with a flood; there is a war; a covenant is confirmed (not made, as you rightly pointed out) for one week (indicating the start of the final week of that covenant, not even that the duration of the covenant is one week); and then after all of that in the midst of that final week - which started with the confirmation of the covenant according to the order and language used, the sacrifice and OBlation cease.

 

This is the order of events, according to the plain and simple reading of the passage.

 

One error that you make is to force the Messiah being cut off, and the ceasing of the sacrifice and OBlation into the same event. The passage does not allow that.

And it is not necessary anyway - the sacrifice and OBlation continued in practice (not effectiveness) until the Temple was destroyed.

 

 

 

But we have been on this roundabout before.

 

You have stated your view, I have stated mine, how about we leave it there for later readers to examine and decide?

 

Neither my view or your view matter much, what matters is the scripture.  

 

Jesus confirmed the covenant with the circumcision.

 

Rom 15:8  Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

 

What could those promises be but the covenant.  After that, the sacrifice ceased, then the temple was destroyed, and Zion was ploughed like a field.

[Invicta]

We??? Speak for yourself. 

The only "decree" that counts in Daniel's prophecy is the "decree" of Artaxerxes - and his reign is historically well established.

The truth is, is that the Replacement Theology folks don't want to know for certainty when the Triumphal Entry occurred,

as it would "mess up" their theology.  It is pride and a long tradition that prevents them from finding the facts.

 

The "Reformers" lost the structure and power of the Pope and the "Holy" Catholic Church in exchange for the Bible in the "common tongue". 

Unfortunately a large portion of Catholic Theology, they retained.  Especially noteworthy is the Protestant/Catholic Doctrines of Replacement Theology (where "the Church" replaces Israel).

They reject any future role of Israel and make us to believe that we already are in "the Millennium" and Christ is "ruling from his Throne" in heaven.

 

Replacement Theology - the Church has replaced Israel because Israel rejected the Messiah

Preterism - all prophecies have already been fulfilled and we are in the Millennium (ie: the Church).

"Symbolization" of any Scripture that doesn't conform to their pre-conceived replacement theology and/or

"Allegorization" of  any Scripture that doesn't conform to their pre-conceived replacement theology

 

Today, the Catholic Church will provide you with a Bible in your "native tongue" and even encourage you to read it.

Many Protestants are "attracted" to 4th Century Catholic Theology, especially their fuzzy escatology...

it's a "sign of the times".

 

You Brethren always resort to abuse instead of quoting the scriptures, or even the source of your accusations.

 

I do not support RT, neither do I have any idea what CT is, although I have asked a number of times.  Sorry Bro, but I left the Brethren years ago.

[DaveW]

You Brethren always resort to abuse instead of quoting the scriptures, or even the source of your accusations.

I do not support RT, neither do I have any idea what CT is, although I have asked a number of times. Sorry Bro, but I left the Brethren years ago.

Gotta have a chuckle here - him rolling out RT is abuse, but you rolling out Brethren is not....

I do think it is unnecessary full stop.
Argue the points, not the people.

Covenanter and I dissagree heavily on many things but he rarely resorts to personal attacks - this thread is prime example.

[No Nicolaitans]

Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

The Bible simply says that 70 "weeks" are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem). In our mind, we think those "weeks" should run concurrently...that's how we think in terms of other things.

 

Now, it's OBvious that from the time when those "weeks" began (the decree to restore and build) that all of those things haven't happened as pointed out in God's word in Daniel 9:24...

 

70 weeks were determined...there's nothing to imply that those weeks had to run concurrent, and since all of Daniel 9:24 hasn't transpired...there had to be a break in the time-line.

 

Isaiah 55:8

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

We would naturally run those weeks consecutively, because that makes sense to us...but that doesn't mean God would.    

[DaveW]

7, 62, 1.......

Anyone know why the first 7 are separated numerically?

Why wasn't it stated "threescore and nine weeks", instead of 7 and 62?

I haven't bothered to look into it, but the passage itself doesn't appear to give a reason.....

[No Nicolaitans]

7, 62, 1.......

Anyone know why the first 7 are separated numerically?

Why wasn't it stated "threescore and nine weeks", instead of 7 and 62?

I haven't bothered to look into it, but the passage itself doesn't appear to give a reason.....

 

I've always assumed the 7 referred to the amount of time it took from the time the decree was given to restore and build Jerusalem...until the jOB was completed. The 62 referred to the time period from the completion of that work until Christ was "cut off"...crucified.

 

Not claiming I'm right...

[DaveW]

Did it take 49 years to build the Temple?
I will have to have a look....

[No Nicolaitans]

Did it take 49 years to build the Temple?
I will have to have a look....

 

Well, the decree of the prophecy had to do with restoring the walls and building Jerusalem back again (Nehemiah 2 and Daniel 9:25)...not the rebuilding of the Temple...at least that's my understanding. 

 

Like I said, I'm not claiming that I'm right though...

[Invicta]

Gotta have a chuckle here - him rolling out RT is abuse, but you rolling out Brethren is not....

I do think it is unnecessary full stop.
Argue the points, not the people.

Covenanter and I dissagree heavily on many things but he rarely resorts to personal attacks - this thread is prime example.

 

I try not to be abusive but I have been called many things on here without responding in like manner. 

 

I apologize.

 

 

Did it take 49 years to build the Temple?
I will have to have a look....

 

Well the third temple was 46 years in building when during Jesus' ministry and still wasn't finished.  It seems that it was not finished till the reign of Nero, shortly before it was destroyed.. 

[DaveW]

I try not to be abusive but I have been called many things on here without responding in like manner.

I apologize.

I actually had a chuckle when I read it.

My post was supposed to be lighthearted, but I can see now it looks a bit heavier than I intended.

[Invicta]

I actually had a chuckle when I read it.

My post was supposed to be lighthearted, but I can see now it looks a bit heavier than I intended.

 

Actually, mine was also meant the same way. But I thought it better to apologize rather than try to justify my remarks.

[Invicta]

 

Daniel 9:24

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

The Bible simply says that 70 "weeks" are determined upon thy people (Israel) and upon thy holy city (Jerusalem). In our mind, we think those "weeks" should run concurrently...that's how we think in terms of other things.

 

Now, it's OBvious that from the time when those "weeks" began (the decree to restore and build) that all of those things haven't happened as pointed out in God's word in Daniel 9:24...

 

70 weeks were determined...there's nothing to imply that those weeks had to run concurrent, and since all of Daniel 9:24 hasn't transpired...there had to be a break in the time-line.

 

Isaiah 55:8

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

 

We would naturally run those weeks consecutively, because that makes sense to us...but that doesn't mean God would.    

 

 

The tragedy of that teaching is that it takes a wonderful prophecy of the Messiah and applies it to the Antichrist.

 

So let us have a fresh look at the prophecy.

 

We see a great deal written and said about Dan. 24:24-27 but very little about the first 23 verses.  Some years ago, our then pastor went through Daniel and spent about 4 weeks on the first part of chapter 9 and only one week on the last four verses.  

 

I am not going to try to do that, but the first part of the chapter ois at least as important as the last so I am urging you all to study it.  I will just  mention a few points which occur to me, I would be interested in any others.

 

The first part of the chapter is a prayer for the forgiveness of the sins oh him and his people.

 

1. vv 1-2 Daniel dates the time of his prayer and recognizes that the 70 years judgment was nearly at an end.

 

2. vv 3-20.  Daniel makes a earnest pray in deep contrition for his people's sins which resulted in the 70 years judgment.

  A few points to note. 

v 9. To God belongs mercy and forgiveness.

v 10. They have not followed God's laws as set before them by the prophets.

v 11.The curse, mentioned by Moses, is on them because they disOBeyed those laws.

V 12. The evil that was brought on them was judgment for those sins. And here is an interesting point:  "by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem." See Matt 24:21, Mark 13:19, Luke 21:22, where even greater evil is prophesied under the Romans. (Matt. Tribulation, Mark Affliction, Luke Vengeance,)

Vv 13-19 Daniel pleas to god for His righteousness, His mercies, the City that bears God's name, etc for forgiveness.

 

v18  O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations,  Greater  desolations by the Romans are foretold. Luke 21:20. Mark 13: Matt 24:15. Dan 11:31

Note for the Josephus watchers.  He said in his history that Antiochus desecrated the temple, in his brief history of Jerusalem, he gives only two desolations, 1, by Nebuchadnezzar and 2.  By Titus.

 

It is late.  I was up early, out all day and now tired, so will come back to this later.

[Genevanpreacher]

Great post. Good night. 

[Ukulelemike]

Perhaps with the 70 weeks issue, it might be prudent to consider the fulfillment of the prophecy of the destruction of Tyre and Sidon. the Lord said they would be destroyed, that Tyre would become a barren rock, upon which the fishermen would dry their nets. That has been perfectly fulfilled, but it took two separate events with, I believe, 300 years between them, for the fulfillment to be completed. It didn't happen at once, but over time.

 

The same with the fulfillment of prophecy of the destruction of Nineveh-God declared it, they repented, then fell back into sin and they were destroyed over a century later.

 

Not everything happens as we think it will.

 

but I don't really have a dog in this fight at the moment, just reading the replies and, like my goats, ruminating over it all.

[No Nicolaitans]

The tragedy of that teaching is that it takes a wonderful prophecy of the Messiah and applies it to the Antichrist.

 

So let us have a fresh look at the prophecy.

 

We see a great deal written and said about Dan. 24:24-27 but very little about the first 23 verses.  Some years ago, our then pastor went through Daniel and spent about 4 weeks on the first part of chapter 9 and only one week on the last four verses.  

 

I am not going to try to do that, but the first part of the chapter ois at least as important as the last so I am urging you all to study it.  I will just  mention a few points which occur to me, I would be interested in any others.

 

The first part of the chapter is a prayer for the forgiveness of the sins oh him and his people.

 

1. vv 1-2 Daniel dates the time of his prayer and recognizes that the 70 years judgment was nearly at an end.

 

2. vv 3-20.  Daniel makes a earnest pray in deep contrition for his people's sins which resulted in the 70 years judgment.

  A few points to note. 

v 9. To God belongs mercy and forgiveness.

v 10. They have not followed God's laws as set before them by the prophets.

v 11.The curse, mentioned by Moses, is on them because they disOBeyed those laws.

V 12. The evil that was brought on them was judgment for those sins. And here is an interesting point:  "by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem." See Matt 24:21, Mark 13:19, Luke 21:22, where even greater evil is prophesied under the Romans. (Matt. Tribulation, Mark Affliction, Luke Vengeance,)

Vv 13-19 Daniel pleas to god for His righteousness, His mercies, the City that bears God's name, etc for forgiveness.

 

v18  O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations,  Greater  desolations by the Romans are foretold. Luke 21:20. Mark 13: Matt 24:15. Dan 11:31

Note for the Josephus watchers.  He said in his history that Antiochus desecrated the temple, in his brief history of Jerusalem, he gives only two desolations, 1, by Nebuchadnezzar and 2.  By Titus.

 

It is late.  I was up early, out all day and now tired, so will come back to this later.

 

I'm interested in what you will add to this, because I'm not understanding your reference to "The tragedy of that teaching is that it takes a wonderful prophecy of the Messiah and applies it to the Antichrist."

 

Are you saying that the "he" of Daniel 9:27 is the Messiah and not the "prince that shall come" of the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary?